Original post: the_theif
alright i'm a solitary wiccan practioner but i've been wondering:
since i'm not in a coven i haven't recieved an initation ritual so am i really wiccan or do i just practise magick?
and if i'm not wiccan does that mean that all who are solitary practioners arn't wiccan?
how can a solitary practitioner be an offical wiccan?
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Original post: Jaaks
If you are a solitary and believe it so, then you are. I have read in a couple of books that, correct me if I'm wrong here, that some covens (not all) don't believe in the "self-initiation" process, although there are other books out there with a "self-initiation" ritual. If you are already on that path then I don't see anything wrong with it.
If you are a solitary and believe it so, then you are. I have read in a couple of books that, correct me if I'm wrong here, that some covens (not all) don't believe in the "self-initiation" process, although there are other books out there with a "self-initiation" ritual. If you are already on that path then I don't see anything wrong with it.
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Original post: MageX
Some people won't take your initiation seriously because it's a self-initiation.
Then again, even if a group did initiate you, some people wouldn't take that seriously either.
In other words, just do what you feel is right.
Some people won't take your initiation seriously because it's a self-initiation.
Then again, even if a group did initiate you, some people wouldn't take that seriously either.
In other words, just do what you feel is right.
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Original post: Frater S.P.P.I.S.
or you could just consider yourself a solitary pagan with Wiccan influences. Nothing wrong with that either.
or you could just consider yourself a solitary pagan with Wiccan influences. Nothing wrong with that either.
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Original post: Harmonic_Order
Well, let's see. If i had spent three years with Magick Belly #9 and wanted to change over to Proteus coven, I'd still have to spend a year as a probationer and however long after that for initiation and recognition. And then if I wanted to convert to the local Dianaic trad circle, they still would offer no reciprocity. So logically, even if you do belong to a coven, other covens don't really consider you a witch. Cunningham wrote that only the Gods can make a witch. I buy that. The Horned One for sure exists, as does Hekat, and I don't think either one cares about initiatory rites' head count. IMHO, however, the word "initiation" does imply an ordeal of some sort, so you would know if you had undergone initiation by some sort of life, limb or sanity-threatening ordeal. Just my HO.
H_O
Well, let's see. If i had spent three years with Magick Belly #9 and wanted to change over to Proteus coven, I'd still have to spend a year as a probationer and however long after that for initiation and recognition. And then if I wanted to convert to the local Dianaic trad circle, they still would offer no reciprocity. So logically, even if you do belong to a coven, other covens don't really consider you a witch. Cunningham wrote that only the Gods can make a witch. I buy that. The Horned One for sure exists, as does Hekat, and I don't think either one cares about initiatory rites' head count. IMHO, however, the word "initiation" does imply an ordeal of some sort, so you would know if you had undergone initiation by some sort of life, limb or sanity-threatening ordeal. Just my HO.
H_O
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Original post: SpiritedHellion
IT's all about belief and Faith...not the amount of people worshiping. Just because one "Belongs" to a coven...doesn't mean that makes them "Wiccan". Sorta reminds me of that bumper sticker "If Going to church makes you a christian, does that mean going to a garage makes you a car" or somthing like that...LOL...It's early, No caffine in the bloodstream yet...but you get my point
IT's all about belief and Faith...not the amount of people worshiping. Just because one "Belongs" to a coven...doesn't mean that makes them "Wiccan". Sorta reminds me of that bumper sticker "If Going to church makes you a christian, does that mean going to a garage makes you a car" or somthing like that...LOL...It's early, No caffine in the bloodstream yet...but you get my point
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Original post: BrotherM
ok, good question, I think that some kind of initiation is important and I believe that a self initiation is just as effective as group initiation - it all depends on the intent. If you are initiated by a bunch of knowledgeless Muppets it honestly won't make a difference, but if you do a serious self initiation, then it will mean a lot. My first initiation was self and it was serious and had great effects - PM me if you want details.
About what you call yourself - hell, in the end of the day it doesn't realy matter does it. You could call me papa smurf if you want, it won't change my abilities and my experience.
Good luck
BrotherM
PS: It is true that a group of people on the same wavelength (same intent) can raise a lot more power / energy than a solitary - the key here is that they need to be on the same wavelength
ok, good question, I think that some kind of initiation is important and I believe that a self initiation is just as effective as group initiation - it all depends on the intent. If you are initiated by a bunch of knowledgeless Muppets it honestly won't make a difference, but if you do a serious self initiation, then it will mean a lot. My first initiation was self and it was serious and had great effects - PM me if you want details.
About what you call yourself - hell, in the end of the day it doesn't realy matter does it. You could call me papa smurf if you want, it won't change my abilities and my experience.
Good luck
BrotherM
PS: It is true that a group of people on the same wavelength (same intent) can raise a lot more power / energy than a solitary - the key here is that they need to be on the same wavelength
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Original post: ChaosTech
Go around telling everyone you are, or not. You are a Wiccan if you believe you are, and like any faith practice what the faith teaches. Don't fall into other's ego trips. If anyone says you are not a true Wiccan because you have not been initiated by a Coven, ask them "who initiated the first Wiccan?" If they can't understand simple logic like this and start claiming some god(ess), high master, the spirit of nature, etc, was the one that initiated the first Wiccan, say something like "That's cool, my own spirit initiated me." If they say it doesn't work this way, say something like "Why? What's the difference between one spirit and another?" Anything they say from this point, is nonsense. Just keep spouting off a line like "Do you deny the divine exists within all things?," until they are red in the face and storm off like mad. :lol:
Or just save yourself time, and don't buy into such egotistical crap.
Go around telling everyone you are, or not. You are a Wiccan if you believe you are, and like any faith practice what the faith teaches. Don't fall into other's ego trips. If anyone says you are not a true Wiccan because you have not been initiated by a Coven, ask them "who initiated the first Wiccan?" If they can't understand simple logic like this and start claiming some god(ess), high master, the spirit of nature, etc, was the one that initiated the first Wiccan, say something like "That's cool, my own spirit initiated me." If they say it doesn't work this way, say something like "Why? What's the difference between one spirit and another?" Anything they say from this point, is nonsense. Just keep spouting off a line like "Do you deny the divine exists within all things?," until they are red in the face and storm off like mad. :lol:
Or just save yourself time, and don't buy into such egotistical crap.
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Original post: Nalyd23
I agree with ChaosTech. Why do you feel it needs to be "official" to be who you are? If you are sincere in whatever you do then that is the only credential you will ever need.
I agree with ChaosTech. Why do you feel it needs to be "official" to be who you are? If you are sincere in whatever you do then that is the only credential you will ever need.
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Original post: the_theif
thanks for all your help guys i'll try to find out how to do a self-initiation ritual on google.
(google kicks but!)
thanks for all your help guys i'll try to find out how to do a self-initiation ritual on google.
(google kicks but!)
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Original post: RhiannonB
Slightly different view point here.
One of the main viewpoints of the Wica is that Wicca is an initiatory mystery tradition, one that cannot be taught from books, only by word of mouth, from someone who has been taught, following the line back to either Gardner or Sanders. (No need to ask who initiated the first Wiccan - in modern terms it was Gardner.)
If you've never been in a Wiccan circle then you have no way of knowing whether what you practice and believe is Wiccan, or whether what you're reading in the books is Wiccan or not.
There is a bit of an obsession with the term Wicca that I don't understand. Would you self initiated as a Catholic by performing your own confirmation, or self initiate into the Free Masons? Why feel the need to give yourself a label that is already in use by another group? What's wrong with being "just" a witch or a pagan?
Wicca is a path that suits very few people, despite what the books say. As someone else said, "self initiation" has sold a lot of books, saying that Wicca is an exclusive and hard to get into religion doesn't.
Rhiannon
Slightly different view point here.
One of the main viewpoints of the Wica is that Wicca is an initiatory mystery tradition, one that cannot be taught from books, only by word of mouth, from someone who has been taught, following the line back to either Gardner or Sanders. (No need to ask who initiated the first Wiccan - in modern terms it was Gardner.)
If you've never been in a Wiccan circle then you have no way of knowing whether what you practice and believe is Wiccan, or whether what you're reading in the books is Wiccan or not.
There is a bit of an obsession with the term Wicca that I don't understand. Would you self initiated as a Catholic by performing your own confirmation, or self initiate into the Free Masons? Why feel the need to give yourself a label that is already in use by another group? What's wrong with being "just" a witch or a pagan?
Wicca is a path that suits very few people, despite what the books say. As someone else said, "self initiation" has sold a lot of books, saying that Wicca is an exclusive and hard to get into religion doesn't.
Rhiannon
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Original post: Stoatfire
Greetings,
My personal understanding of initiation is that it's an ongoing process that should be conferred by the God's and not by some self appointed High Priestess / Priest (even if they did know Old Gerald or Alex).
As a Traditional Practitioner, I have purposefully avoided any Clan's or Cuveen's who offer Blessings and Initiations which are dished out by mortal hands.
Get out into the wilds and seek your illumination in the real world, and leave the 3 degree's to the indoor / front room witches.
FFF
Stoatfire
Clan of Tubals Forge
Greetings,
My personal understanding of initiation is that it's an ongoing process that should be conferred by the God's and not by some self appointed High Priestess / Priest (even if they did know Old Gerald or Alex).
As a Traditional Practitioner, I have purposefully avoided any Clan's or Cuveen's who offer Blessings and Initiations which are dished out by mortal hands.
Get out into the wilds and seek your illumination in the real world, and leave the 3 degree's to the indoor / front room witches.
FFF
Stoatfire
Clan of Tubals Forge
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Original post: Nalyd23
There is a similar discussion about solo-initiation going on in THIS THREAD in the Ceremonial forum.
There is a similar discussion about solo-initiation going on in THIS THREAD in the Ceremonial forum.
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Original post: doh
If "Wiccan" is how someone wishes to label themselves and goes through the rituals and the holy days and the practices and belief structure, who is to say, or has the right to say, that they aren't Wiccan?
Which Wicca are you referring to? There are at least five very individual paths to Wiccan practice. All are just as valid as the other. And I will disagree that you will not know what is Wiccan unless you got to a circle. The information on it abounds. Some of the "super secret stuff" you may not have access to, but the basic tenets of any of the paths of Wicca are easily accessible by anyone. Now folks don't have to read it only in books. They can gain info over the internet from people that are Wiccan and willing to teach. I've known a few Wiccans that are solitary practioners and initiated themselves, but when you stand them side by side with those that have been initiated by someone else, you can't tell the difference based on what AND how they practice. And they have been Wiccan since the 60's.Wicca is a path that suits very few people,
If "Wiccan" is how someone wishes to label themselves and goes through the rituals and the holy days and the practices and belief structure, who is to say, or has the right to say, that they aren't Wiccan?
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Original post: doh
If "Wiccan" is how someone wishes to label themselves and goes through the rituals and the holy days and the practices and belief structure, who is to say, or has the right to say, that they aren't Wiccan? Personally, I stay away from labels that limit me.
Which Wicca are you referring to? There are at least five very individual paths to Wiccan practice. All are just as valid as the other. And I will disagree that you will not know what is Wiccan unless you got to a circle. The information on it abounds. Some of the "super secret stuff" you may not have access to, but the basic tenets of any of the paths of Wicca are easily accessible by anyone. Now folks don't have to read it only in books. They can gain info over the internet from people that are Wiccan and willing to teach. I've known a few Wiccans that are solitary practioners and initiated themselves, but when you stand them side by side with those that have been initiated by someone else, you can't tell the difference based on what AND how they practice. And they have been Wiccan since the 60's.Wicca is a path that suits very few people,
If "Wiccan" is how someone wishes to label themselves and goes through the rituals and the holy days and the practices and belief structure, who is to say, or has the right to say, that they aren't Wiccan? Personally, I stay away from labels that limit me.
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Original post: martin
"My personal understanding of initiation is that it's an ongoing process that should be conferred by the God's and not by some self appointed High Priestess / Priest (even if they did know Old Gerald or Alex)."
I certainly agree there. So many witches pledge all between two hands in someone's parlour. I wouldn't recognise any initiation other than that gained by direct experience with the Old Ones themselves. In fact, all training in our Tradition is geared towards that moment when one faces the Old Ones alone in those special open places. Yes, it can be terrifying, but it's more powerful and meaningful than anything "willed" into one by another.
In fact, regarding the three degrees (brings to mind disco fever!), I know that some old groups were actually bigradal. Although I personally, as someone who long ago realised that there are many supposed "elders" who have nothing of value to share, feel one cannot denote/judge attainment in this simplistic way.
FFFF
Martin
"My personal understanding of initiation is that it's an ongoing process that should be conferred by the God's and not by some self appointed High Priestess / Priest (even if they did know Old Gerald or Alex)."
I certainly agree there. So many witches pledge all between two hands in someone's parlour. I wouldn't recognise any initiation other than that gained by direct experience with the Old Ones themselves. In fact, all training in our Tradition is geared towards that moment when one faces the Old Ones alone in those special open places. Yes, it can be terrifying, but it's more powerful and meaningful than anything "willed" into one by another.
In fact, regarding the three degrees (brings to mind disco fever!), I know that some old groups were actually bigradal. Although I personally, as someone who long ago realised that there are many supposed "elders" who have nothing of value to share, feel one cannot denote/judge attainment in this simplistic way.
FFFF
Martin
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Original post: Quidgyboo
You are not what would be called a Traditional Wiccan, but big deal? You don't need someone else to justify your path.
You are not what would be called a Traditional Wiccan, but big deal? You don't need someone else to justify your path.
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Original post: Raven Moon
[QUOTE=Quidgyboo]You are not what would be called a Traditional Wiccan, but big deal? You don't need someone else to justify your path.[/QUOTE]
Right if you want to be Wiccan be Wiccan. No one else can tell what you believe and if that happens to be Wicca then go for it. Sure there will be people that tell you the only way you can be Wiccan is if you join this group or that group, the thing you have to do is make sure it doesn't bother you and you'll be fine.
[QUOTE=Quidgyboo]You are not what would be called a Traditional Wiccan, but big deal? You don't need someone else to justify your path.[/QUOTE]
Right if you want to be Wiccan be Wiccan. No one else can tell what you believe and if that happens to be Wicca then go for it. Sure there will be people that tell you the only way you can be Wiccan is if you join this group or that group, the thing you have to do is make sure it doesn't bother you and you'll be fine.
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Original post: ShekinahMoon
Wicca is not a denomination. There is no official "Wiccan church". You do not need your name on a membership roaster before accepting the title of Wiccan. You are a Wiccan if you choose to follow the Wiccan path. Just like you are a Witch if you choose to follow the path of the Craft. It's up to you. Some people find it easier to accept themselves as Wiccan when they are initiated into a coven. But it is not necessary. Also, whether or not you get an initiation may depend on how involved you would like to get in the Wiccan world. You may find others will accept you better as a Wiccan if you can tell them who initiated you and into what tradition. Or you can not care what others think. LOL
Wicca is not a denomination. There is no official "Wiccan church". You do not need your name on a membership roaster before accepting the title of Wiccan. You are a Wiccan if you choose to follow the Wiccan path. Just like you are a Witch if you choose to follow the path of the Craft. It's up to you. Some people find it easier to accept themselves as Wiccan when they are initiated into a coven. But it is not necessary. Also, whether or not you get an initiation may depend on how involved you would like to get in the Wiccan world. You may find others will accept you better as a Wiccan if you can tell them who initiated you and into what tradition. Or you can not care what others think. LOL
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Original post: Delano
Initiate means to begin or in this case the right to gain to entry to a coven. If you are solitary try & ask yourself the definition of the word, rather than hype that Wicca related books may state about advantages. The people in a coven aren't there just to practise together, but prefer to work with familiar energies that they feel comfortable with. It is a very optional thing for personal growth if the solitary feels the need to do group exercises.
Put bluntly, ask yourself whether you're ready to be honest about making an effort & if you think you're ready to start learning & practising.
http://www.paganpath.com/witch/topic-3-25-317-0.html
There is a form called Saxon Wicca listed on the page that says it is supposed to be good for solitaries, though it is a very loose leaf tradition from what I know of it. It really shouldn't matter too much- in the end you are just plain you with a label for description of structured beliefs.
Delano
Initiate means to begin or in this case the right to gain to entry to a coven. If you are solitary try & ask yourself the definition of the word, rather than hype that Wicca related books may state about advantages. The people in a coven aren't there just to practise together, but prefer to work with familiar energies that they feel comfortable with. It is a very optional thing for personal growth if the solitary feels the need to do group exercises.
Put bluntly, ask yourself whether you're ready to be honest about making an effort & if you think you're ready to start learning & practising.
Look at the list of them i found! Its endless & is probably growing larger weekly.There are at least five very individual paths to Wiccan practice.
http://www.paganpath.com/witch/topic-3-25-317-0.html
There is a form called Saxon Wicca listed on the page that says it is supposed to be good for solitaries, though it is a very loose leaf tradition from what I know of it. It really shouldn't matter too much- in the end you are just plain you with a label for description of structured beliefs.
Delano
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Original post: RhiannonB
Yes - you can call yourself what you like - the Gumshoe Fairy, an airline pilot, a dentist, a hairdresser. Actually "being" something is very different to naming yourself as something though.
If you want to be one of the Wicca then get out and be it, do what it takes to earn the title.
If you don't want to do that then go and do something else.
I'd suggest reading the chapter on initiation in Vivianne Crowley's book, "Wicca, the Old Religion in the New Millennium". That's written by someone who is genuinely of the Wicca, rather than someone on the internet saying they are (which is something that anybody can claim).
Rhiannon
Yes - you can call yourself what you like - the Gumshoe Fairy, an airline pilot, a dentist, a hairdresser. Actually "being" something is very different to naming yourself as something though.
If you want to be one of the Wicca then get out and be it, do what it takes to earn the title.
If you don't want to do that then go and do something else.
I'd suggest reading the chapter on initiation in Vivianne Crowley's book, "Wicca, the Old Religion in the New Millennium". That's written by someone who is genuinely of the Wicca, rather than someone on the internet saying they are (which is something that anybody can claim).
Rhiannon
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Original post: RhiannonB
[QUOTE=Nalyd23]There is a similar discussion about solo-initiation going on in THIS THREAD in the Ceremonial forum.[/QUOTE]
Thanks - some good stuff there. There's a lot of threads that I haven't got the time to plough through on this site - hopefully over the coming weeks I'll have a chance to read them.
Rhiannon
[QUOTE=Nalyd23]There is a similar discussion about solo-initiation going on in THIS THREAD in the Ceremonial forum.[/QUOTE]
Thanks - some good stuff there. There's a lot of threads that I haven't got the time to plough through on this site - hopefully over the coming weeks I'll have a chance to read them.
Rhiannon
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Original post: RhiannonB
Forgot to add - if you're interested in progressing along a Wiccan path, then an excellent American based group to sign up to is http://groups.yahoo.com/amberandjet
If you have time plough through the archives - there is some very intersting stuff on it, and it's okay to lurk.
bb
Rhiannon
Forgot to add - if you're interested in progressing along a Wiccan path, then an excellent American based group to sign up to is http://groups.yahoo.com/amberandjet
If you have time plough through the archives - there is some very intersting stuff on it, and it's okay to lurk.
bb
Rhiannon
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Original post: doh
[QUOTE=ShekinahMoon]Wicca is not a denomination. There is no official "Wiccan church". [/QUOTE]
No offense, but I just had to point out the Wicaa IS on officially recognized religion. Though it is true that you can just claim it doesn't make it that you actually practice. Many folks I know claim to be Catholic but haven't stepped foot in a church in years. As far as claiming what you are, I do agree that claiming and being are two entirely different things. I personally liked the title of [QUOTE=RhiannonB]the Gumshoe Fairy[/QUOTE] I just believe that if someone follows the basic tenents of Wicca without the initiation (most of the biggie's like the Rede and holidays and such are fairly "across the board" with the differening beliefs), they are much more Wiccan than someone who claims to be Wiccan, has been initiated, and doesn't do anything. I'd much rather deal with the uninitiated individual in this case.
[QUOTE=ShekinahMoon]Wicca is not a denomination. There is no official "Wiccan church". [/QUOTE]
No offense, but I just had to point out the Wicaa IS on officially recognized religion. Though it is true that you can just claim it doesn't make it that you actually practice. Many folks I know claim to be Catholic but haven't stepped foot in a church in years. As far as claiming what you are, I do agree that claiming and being are two entirely different things. I personally liked the title of [QUOTE=RhiannonB]the Gumshoe Fairy[/QUOTE]
I just believe that if someone follows the basic tenents of Wicca without the initiation (most of the biggie's like the Rede and holidays and such are fairly "across the board" with the differening beliefs), they are much more Wiccan than someone who claims to be Wiccan, has been initiated, and doesn't do anything. I'd much rather deal with the uninitiated individual in this case.-
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Original post: RhiannonB
In my experience the ones who follow the "Wiccan Rede" are actually not Wiccan, and those Wiccans I know don't follow it. (I don't consider the Rede to be Wiccan, it having been brought to prominence by one non-Wiccan, and someone who wasn't following Wicca at the time of writing.) Confusing heh??
Gardner and Stewart Farrar have some interesting things to say about it too - worth reading their writings on the matter.
bb
Rhiannon
In my experience the ones who follow the "Wiccan Rede" are actually not Wiccan, and those Wiccans I know don't follow it. (I don't consider the Rede to be Wiccan, it having been brought to prominence by one non-Wiccan, and someone who wasn't following Wicca at the time of writing.) Confusing heh??
Gardner and Stewart Farrar have some interesting things to say about it too - worth reading their writings on the matter.
bb
Rhiannon