Original post: Demetrios
Hermeticism is called "Pagan Gnosticism" in the sticky. I would be very interested to hear people's opinions on what are the main differences between Hermeticism and Gnosticism, and if there are indeed reasons to consider them different doctrines (other than cultural adoptation)?
Related question is of course the relationships with Hellenistic Neopythagorism, Orphism and Neoplatonism, as well as Esseans, Gymnosophists etc. My own hypothesis (not original) is that there are underlying Indian/Buddhist influences behind all these seemingly related lines. Any thoughts on this?
Gnosis.org has lecture on Hermeticism by dr. Hoeller, but unfortunately the lectures are in Real Media format, and after few bad experiences I now absolutely refuse to install the RealMedia player on my computer. If others are free of such fobias and have listened the lecture, I would be very gratefull for a brief summary on dr. Hoeller's views.
Relative and absolute timing of the Gnostic schools and their scriptures is very important and interesting. Am I right assuming that Setian scool (Judean, not necessarily related to historical Jesus in any way) is the earliest, and possibly predates Christian era? Hermeticism could be earlier or simultaneous with Setian Gnosticism, but is definately earlier than Christian (Valentinian) Gnosticism. This seems to be confirmed by what was told to me by my friend who is papyrologist. She told me there is yet unpublished Hermetic text in Coptic language, which is dated in the second century BCE! This is IMO quite remarkable and I hope the publication is not far away. I'll let you know if I hear more about this text.
Hermeticism
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Hermeticism
Original post: Frater Omicron
Greetings Demetrios,
Very interesting questions indeed.
One aspect of Hermeticism that separates itself from Gnosicism is that it is based upon the writings of Hermes Trismegestos. Certainly the Gnosic literature embraces some Hermetic writings, but it is not based upon them. Much of the Hermetic influences which informed sects like the Essenes derives from Near Eastern sources, as in the likes of the Sabaeans and the Nabateans.
Neopythagorianism and Neoplatonism both were adopted during the Renaissance by the likes of Ficino and Mirandola who worked to synthesize various ancient esoteric doctrines.
Indeed there are many similarities between Hermeticism and Setian Gnosis, again to be found in Near Eastern sources. A great book recently published regarding this is; Celestial Magic by Nigel Jackson. I recommend this highly as it give some historical presedent to the practical operations given in the text.
I am curious to learn more about the Papyri your friend mentioned. Which institution holds that document and how is its referred to? I mean title-wise not how to access it. It sounds a lot like the Betz Greek-Magical Papyrii and I would love to see more of that kind of work.
Regards,
Frater Omicron
Greetings Demetrios,
Very interesting questions indeed.
One aspect of Hermeticism that separates itself from Gnosicism is that it is based upon the writings of Hermes Trismegestos. Certainly the Gnosic literature embraces some Hermetic writings, but it is not based upon them. Much of the Hermetic influences which informed sects like the Essenes derives from Near Eastern sources, as in the likes of the Sabaeans and the Nabateans.
Neopythagorianism and Neoplatonism both were adopted during the Renaissance by the likes of Ficino and Mirandola who worked to synthesize various ancient esoteric doctrines.
Indeed there are many similarities between Hermeticism and Setian Gnosis, again to be found in Near Eastern sources. A great book recently published regarding this is; Celestial Magic by Nigel Jackson. I recommend this highly as it give some historical presedent to the practical operations given in the text.
I am curious to learn more about the Papyri your friend mentioned. Which institution holds that document and how is its referred to? I mean title-wise not how to access it. It sounds a lot like the Betz Greek-Magical Papyrii and I would love to see more of that kind of work.
Regards,
Frater Omicron
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Hermeticism
Original post: Demetrios
Hermes Trismegistos is mythical, archetypal figure, modern opinion is that the Hermetic writing originated in the Hellenistic era. Are there links to ancient Egyptian religion and holy scriptures and the nature of these links is a matter of lively debate. I don't see this as an important difference, my question was targeted at the possible doctrinal differences.
My friend mentioned the name of the person who holds publishing rights, but naturally it slipped my mind. I understood that the text of the papyrus is similar to the dialogues found in the Corpus Hermeticum. When I hear more, I will tell.
Frater Omicron wrote:Greetings Demetrios,
One aspect of Hermeticism that separates itself from Gnosicism is that it is based upon the writings of Hermes Trismegestos. Certainly the Gnosic literature embraces some Hermetic writings, but it is not based upon them. Much of the Hermetic influences which informed sects like the Essenes derives from Near Eastern sources, as in the likes of the Sabaeans and the Nabateans.
Hermes Trismegistos is mythical, archetypal figure, modern opinion is that the Hermetic writing originated in the Hellenistic era. Are there links to ancient Egyptian religion and holy scriptures and the nature of these links is a matter of lively debate. I don't see this as an important difference, my question was targeted at the possible doctrinal differences.
I am curious to learn more about the Papyri your friend mentioned. Which institution holds that document and how is its referred to? I mean title-wise not how to access it. It sounds a lot like the Betz Greek-Magical Papyrii and I would love to see more of that kind of work.
Regards,
Frater Omicron
My friend mentioned the name of the person who holds publishing rights, but naturally it slipped my mind. I understood that the text of the papyrus is similar to the dialogues found in the Corpus Hermeticum. When I hear more, I will tell.
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Hermeticism
Original post: pmcv
For my own two cents, let me point out that in the debate concering whether the so called "practical Hermetica" are actually to be grouped singularly with the "Philosophical Hermetica", I am a bit skeptical about dealing with them as a unified school. However, there are some good arguements about the interconnectedness in certain specific periods, so I think perhaps I will have to concede that this debate is less important here than other concerns.
Mainly, even if we accept the notion that these texts can all be grouped together in some way, we still must deal with the fact that the philosophical speculations are plainly an example of late antiquities thought (and most specifically, Neoplatonist theology), and for this reason, and the fact that Demetrios points out that our concern would have to be on doctrinal issues, that whatever interconnection we may postulate between Hermetic texts it is only the so called "Philosophical" texts that we can compare with Gnosticism.
This really brings up the problem of influence. It is not clear that this form of Hermetic writing predates Christian Gnosticism, but of course if the discovery that Demetrios mentions is true, then it becomes possible. However, I would point out we need not only carbon dating of the paper, but also textual dating of the language (in case writing materials were reused, etc.,) AND, then this papyrus must be dealt with concerning it's relation to only those texts that demonstrate this later philosophical development.
Considering the fickle nature of first impression in dating and dealing with these materials, I think we do have to be a bit skeptical about any texts that are unpublished, especially if they have not even enjoyed open access by the academic community.
This means we are probably left with the C.H., and the Hermetic writings in the N.H.
My first observation concerning Sethian vs Hermetic writings then, would be the feelings towards the material universe. The negativity of the Sethians is closer to that which we find in some late antiquities Platonized "Pythagorian" writings (though not in others).
The next point I tend to notice is the development of the Sethian cosmology, and it's complex allegorical nature. Perhaps others here see the same level in the Hermetica.
BTW, I wanted to point out that I do not agree with calling Hermeticism "Pagan Gnosticism", I simply meant to point out that there are a number of people who do so. On the contrary, I feel that this label is a misnomer.
PMCV
For my own two cents, let me point out that in the debate concering whether the so called "practical Hermetica" are actually to be grouped singularly with the "Philosophical Hermetica", I am a bit skeptical about dealing with them as a unified school. However, there are some good arguements about the interconnectedness in certain specific periods, so I think perhaps I will have to concede that this debate is less important here than other concerns.
Mainly, even if we accept the notion that these texts can all be grouped together in some way, we still must deal with the fact that the philosophical speculations are plainly an example of late antiquities thought (and most specifically, Neoplatonist theology), and for this reason, and the fact that Demetrios points out that our concern would have to be on doctrinal issues, that whatever interconnection we may postulate between Hermetic texts it is only the so called "Philosophical" texts that we can compare with Gnosticism.
This really brings up the problem of influence. It is not clear that this form of Hermetic writing predates Christian Gnosticism, but of course if the discovery that Demetrios mentions is true, then it becomes possible. However, I would point out we need not only carbon dating of the paper, but also textual dating of the language (in case writing materials were reused, etc.,) AND, then this papyrus must be dealt with concerning it's relation to only those texts that demonstrate this later philosophical development.
Considering the fickle nature of first impression in dating and dealing with these materials, I think we do have to be a bit skeptical about any texts that are unpublished, especially if they have not even enjoyed open access by the academic community.
This means we are probably left with the C.H., and the Hermetic writings in the N.H.
My first observation concerning Sethian vs Hermetic writings then, would be the feelings towards the material universe. The negativity of the Sethians is closer to that which we find in some late antiquities Platonized "Pythagorian" writings (though not in others).
The next point I tend to notice is the development of the Sethian cosmology, and it's complex allegorical nature. Perhaps others here see the same level in the Hermetica.
BTW, I wanted to point out that I do not agree with calling Hermeticism "Pagan Gnosticism", I simply meant to point out that there are a number of people who do so. On the contrary, I feel that this label is a misnomer.
PMCV
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Hermeticism
Original post: Yazan
I have just began reading Mead's Thrice Greatest Hermes (about halfway through the first volume), and he makes a lot of connections between Hermetic and Gostic thought. In spite my rather limited understanding of Gnosticism, I noticed that mead very easily uses Gnostic terms like "Demiurge" (especially when talking about Ptah), "Sophia" (especially when talking about Isis).
When going with a stricty egyptian point of view, I would doubt that we can correlate it simply with Sethian Gnosticism - in the Egyptian mind, Ptah is a rather venerable and good demiurge. It ispossible, however, to say that Osiris may represent a Seth figure: When Osiris' "sarcophagos" landed in Byblos, it sprouted a magnificent tree, echoing the idea of Seth's seed/tree. Osiris is also a sort of saviour figure, and through his union of Isis came Horus of Behedet, who is a true savior figure.
I would like to point out, though, the difference between Set, Sutekh, Seth, Seth and Typhoon (I did not repeat a nameby mistake
).
"Seth" is a Judaeo-christian figure, the third sone of Eve, whome many Gnostics attributed their bloodlines to.
"Seth" also seems to be a careless yet popular 19th century helenized rendering of Sutekh, the Egyptian "ass"-headed god of destruction, brother of Isis and Osiris.
**"Sethian" Gnostics are attributed to the first Seth. Sethian (or sometimes, Setian) Satanists are attributed to the second Seth. I personally avoid using "Seth" when refering to the Egyptian form to avoid confusion.
"Set" is the Coptic rendering of abovementioned god.
"Typhoon" is the true Hellenistic "analogue" of Sutekh, in the same manner that Hermes is a Hellenistic Thoth.
I have just began reading Mead's Thrice Greatest Hermes (about halfway through the first volume), and he makes a lot of connections between Hermetic and Gostic thought. In spite my rather limited understanding of Gnosticism, I noticed that mead very easily uses Gnostic terms like "Demiurge" (especially when talking about Ptah), "Sophia" (especially when talking about Isis).
When going with a stricty egyptian point of view, I would doubt that we can correlate it simply with Sethian Gnosticism - in the Egyptian mind, Ptah is a rather venerable and good demiurge. It ispossible, however, to say that Osiris may represent a Seth figure: When Osiris' "sarcophagos" landed in Byblos, it sprouted a magnificent tree, echoing the idea of Seth's seed/tree. Osiris is also a sort of saviour figure, and through his union of Isis came Horus of Behedet, who is a true savior figure.
I would like to point out, though, the difference between Set, Sutekh, Seth, Seth and Typhoon (I did not repeat a nameby mistake
). "Seth" is a Judaeo-christian figure, the third sone of Eve, whome many Gnostics attributed their bloodlines to.
"Seth" also seems to be a careless yet popular 19th century helenized rendering of Sutekh, the Egyptian "ass"-headed god of destruction, brother of Isis and Osiris.
**"Sethian" Gnostics are attributed to the first Seth. Sethian (or sometimes, Setian) Satanists are attributed to the second Seth. I personally avoid using "Seth" when refering to the Egyptian form to avoid confusion.
"Set" is the Coptic rendering of abovementioned god.
"Typhoon" is the true Hellenistic "analogue" of Sutekh, in the same manner that Hermes is a Hellenistic Thoth.
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Hermeticism
Original post: pmcv
Hey Yazan, thanks for bringing that up. Actually, I had noticed a number of people, not only on this thread but on others here in the Gnosticism forum spelling the word "Setian". I assumed it was a typo, but I did keep thinking that I should make sure and say something because there have been some people in this forum in the past who have confused "Sethians" (the Gnostic sect) with the modern day "Temple of Set".
Of course, for anyone in the forum that may be unsure.... we here are only focused on the former, the Sethians. This Seth is the one that is the third son of Adam... and what some Gnostics consider to the the Christ. This is not the Egyptian deity.
PMCV
Hey Yazan, thanks for bringing that up. Actually, I had noticed a number of people, not only on this thread but on others here in the Gnosticism forum spelling the word "Setian". I assumed it was a typo, but I did keep thinking that I should make sure and say something because there have been some people in this forum in the past who have confused "Sethians" (the Gnostic sect) with the modern day "Temple of Set".
Of course, for anyone in the forum that may be unsure.... we here are only focused on the former, the Sethians. This Seth is the one that is the third son of Adam... and what some Gnostics consider to the the Christ. This is not the Egyptian deity.
PMCV
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Hermeticism
Original post: pmcv
BTW, towards the bottom of the Gnosticism page there is a thread dealing with Sethian Gnosticism that Asimis started, it is simply called "Sethian Gnosticism"..... if anyone wishes to talk about it more in depth.
PMCV
BTW, towards the bottom of the Gnosticism page there is a thread dealing with Sethian Gnosticism that Asimis started, it is simply called "Sethian Gnosticism"..... if anyone wishes to talk about it more in depth.
PMCV