Original post: Shepard of Arcadia
Did the ancient Gnostics have any sort of doctrine of reincarnation ? I read somewhere that some sects taught something similar yet not exactly like reincarnation as is understood by most people , but I wasn't sure.
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Original post: enki360
I asked this question in an earlier thread, and it was unanswered.
It seems to me that we can make an inference and answer yes.
Here's my reasoning:
Gnostics say that we have a spark of the divine and transcendant Source (I like to use the word source because it's free of dogma) that has been trapped by the demiurge, who wants to keep all the divine sparks trapped in this universe. This is done with the aid of Archons, which bar the path of the soul as it leaves this world. Most souls don't make it past all the archons, so where do these souls go? The spark cannot be destroyed. It seems to me reincarnation is implied in gnostic thought, but I don't have the requisite knowledge to cite an example. well, it's back to digging through the Nag Hammadi Library!
I asked this question in an earlier thread, and it was unanswered.
It seems to me that we can make an inference and answer yes.
Here's my reasoning:
Gnostics say that we have a spark of the divine and transcendant Source (I like to use the word source because it's free of dogma) that has been trapped by the demiurge, who wants to keep all the divine sparks trapped in this universe. This is done with the aid of Archons, which bar the path of the soul as it leaves this world. Most souls don't make it past all the archons, so where do these souls go? The spark cannot be destroyed. It seems to me reincarnation is implied in gnostic thought, but I don't have the requisite knowledge to cite an example. well, it's back to digging through the Nag Hammadi Library!
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Original post: pmcv
Hey Shepard
The spirit has no identity. The only identity is via the world of perception. The spirit is like water in a glass, defined by that glass' shape. If you take that glass of water and poor it into a river, and then you have another person down river with another glass... it does not matter that the glass looks the same, it is very unlikely that you will draw a glass of water made from the same molecules of water. In other words, the same spirit is never reborn, but the spirit material is recycled until if finds a level of cohesion in a glass that finds its way beyond the river.... and into the mouth of an "elect" so that it can be sent up.
Manichaeans are not technically "Gnostics", and this is not technically "reincarnation", but instead "transmigration". But I think this is what is most often being talked about when people mention reincarnation together with Gnosticism.
There is a hint of another idea in Gnosticism, that comes from the Platonic source. In this model, hylics would not be reborn because they have no spirit (they simply die, as in the modern atheist belief). Pneumatics would not be reborn because their spirit passes the Archons.... but what happens to the psychic spirits in the middle? Enki points in an interesting direction in that in Platonism there is the allegory of the souls and the cup of forgetting. The spirits have their identity wiped, and are sent back to try again.
However, this is not generally a Gnostic myth, and the reason Enki did not get a good answer before is that Gnostics did not agree on this subject. It is impossible to make a definitive outline for something that is not definitive for the movement. Gnostics simply were not generally concerned with what happened to the Hylics and Psychics so much, and this means that various models could be presented as possibilities. So, I have to disagree with Enki and agree at the same time, in that I think it is true that SOME Gnostics offered a model that had some similarities with "reincarnation" (though none that fit the term in a more technical way), but at the same time it is not a general "Gnostic" attribute that can be dealt with as a belief the entire movement agreed on.
PMCV
Hey Shepard
You may be talking about the Manichaean idea of transmigration. It is not exactly the same as reincarnation, but the word "reincarnation" often comes to mind for many people who read about it. It looks something like this.....I read somewhere that some sects taught something similar yet not exactly like reincarnation as is understood by most people , but I wasn't sure.
The spirit has no identity. The only identity is via the world of perception. The spirit is like water in a glass, defined by that glass' shape. If you take that glass of water and poor it into a river, and then you have another person down river with another glass... it does not matter that the glass looks the same, it is very unlikely that you will draw a glass of water made from the same molecules of water. In other words, the same spirit is never reborn, but the spirit material is recycled until if finds a level of cohesion in a glass that finds its way beyond the river.... and into the mouth of an "elect" so that it can be sent up.
Manichaeans are not technically "Gnostics", and this is not technically "reincarnation", but instead "transmigration". But I think this is what is most often being talked about when people mention reincarnation together with Gnosticism.
There is a hint of another idea in Gnosticism, that comes from the Platonic source. In this model, hylics would not be reborn because they have no spirit (they simply die, as in the modern atheist belief). Pneumatics would not be reborn because their spirit passes the Archons.... but what happens to the psychic spirits in the middle? Enki points in an interesting direction in that in Platonism there is the allegory of the souls and the cup of forgetting. The spirits have their identity wiped, and are sent back to try again.
However, this is not generally a Gnostic myth, and the reason Enki did not get a good answer before is that Gnostics did not agree on this subject. It is impossible to make a definitive outline for something that is not definitive for the movement. Gnostics simply were not generally concerned with what happened to the Hylics and Psychics so much, and this means that various models could be presented as possibilities. So, I have to disagree with Enki and agree at the same time, in that I think it is true that SOME Gnostics offered a model that had some similarities with "reincarnation" (though none that fit the term in a more technical way), but at the same time it is not a general "Gnostic" attribute that can be dealt with as a belief the entire movement agreed on.
PMCV
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Original post: uraeusheap
[QUOTE=pmcv]There is a hint of another idea in Gnosticism, that comes from the Platonic source. In this model, hylics would not be reborn because they have no spirit (they simply die, as in the modern atheist belief). Pneumatics would not be reborn because their spirit passes the Archons.... but what happens to the psychic spirits in the middle? Enki points in an interesting direction in that in Platonism there is the allegory of the souls and the cup of forgetting. The spirits have their identity wiped, and are sent back to try again.[/QUOTE]
Very confusing. I thought you said on a previous thread somewhere that hylics could grow into being psychics and psychics could become pneumatics. It is difficult to reconcile that with this.
[QUOTE=pmcv]There is a hint of another idea in Gnosticism, that comes from the Platonic source. In this model, hylics would not be reborn because they have no spirit (they simply die, as in the modern atheist belief). Pneumatics would not be reborn because their spirit passes the Archons.... but what happens to the psychic spirits in the middle? Enki points in an interesting direction in that in Platonism there is the allegory of the souls and the cup of forgetting. The spirits have their identity wiped, and are sent back to try again.[/QUOTE]
Very confusing. I thought you said on a previous thread somewhere that hylics could grow into being psychics and psychics could become pneumatics. It is difficult to reconcile that with this.
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Original post: strangeDivine
[QUOTE=uraeusheap]Very confusing. I thought you said on a previous thread somewhere that hylics could grow into being psychics and psychics could become pneumatics. It is difficult to reconcile that with this.[/QUOTE]
To me that seems to imply that the divine spark is received with the gnosis, and is not "awakened" within the individual (ie. it is implanted). But from many of the Nag Hammadi writings I get the impression that the spark lies dormant in everyone, and is simply reactivated by gnosis.
Are these two distinct doctrines within Gnosticism?
[QUOTE=uraeusheap]Very confusing. I thought you said on a previous thread somewhere that hylics could grow into being psychics and psychics could become pneumatics. It is difficult to reconcile that with this.[/QUOTE]
To me that seems to imply that the divine spark is received with the gnosis, and is not "awakened" within the individual (ie. it is implanted). But from many of the Nag Hammadi writings I get the impression that the spark lies dormant in everyone, and is simply reactivated by gnosis.
Are these two distinct doctrines within Gnosticism?
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Original post: enki360
There are many distinct doctrine within Gnosticism, simply because the group we call Gnostics are heterogenous.
pmcv points out the Manichean doctrine of transmigration (for a fictional elaboration on that read Phillip K. Dick's final book, The Transmigration of Timothy Archer).
I've been perusing the Nag Hammadi Library and find no direct reference, though it seems that the Valentian school of thought (and the more Hellenistic groups) is compatible with the concept of reincarnation.
Again referring to pmcv's comment on Platonic thought, that is where I see the connection the most. Have we all bathed in the river Lethe?
There are many distinct doctrine within Gnosticism, simply because the group we call Gnostics are heterogenous.
pmcv points out the Manichean doctrine of transmigration (for a fictional elaboration on that read Phillip K. Dick's final book, The Transmigration of Timothy Archer).
I've been perusing the Nag Hammadi Library and find no direct reference, though it seems that the Valentian school of thought (and the more Hellenistic groups) is compatible with the concept of reincarnation.
Again referring to pmcv's comment on Platonic thought, that is where I see the connection the most. Have we all bathed in the river Lethe?
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Original post: Shepard of Arcadia
My thoughts as well. It does not seem appropriate that some people are simply "beyond redemption."Very confusing. I thought you said on a previous thread somewhere that hylics could grow into being psychics and psychics could become pneumatics. It is difficult to reconcile that with this.
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Original post: Space Debris
[QUOTE=enki360]Here's my reasoning:
Gnostics say that we have a spark of the divine and transcendant Source (I like to use the word source because it's free of dogma) that has been trapped by the demiurge, who wants to keep all the divine sparks trapped in this universe. This is done with the aid of Archons, which bar the path of the soul as it leaves this world. Most souls don't make it past all the archons, so where do these souls go? The spark cannot be destroyed. It seems to me reincarnation is implied in gnostic thought, but I don't have the requisite knowledge to cite an example. well, it's back to digging through the Nag Hammadi Library![/QUOTE]
Enki, I agree with your reasoning on this subject. As for references in Gnostic-related writings, I think these can come into consideration:
The Apocryphon of John teaches the following regarding the outcome for those "who have not known to whom they belong" -- In those, the despicable spirit has gained strength when they went astray. And he burdens the soul and draws it to the works of evil, and he casts it down into forgetfulness. And after it comes out of (the body), it is handed over to the authorities, who came into being through the archon, and they bind it with chains and cast it into prison, and consort with it until it is liberated from the forgetfulness and acquires knowledge. And if thus it becomes perfect, it is saved (NHC II 26,33-27,11). It isn't explicit, but I think the casting of the unenlightened soul with "chains" into "prison" until it attains saving knowledge can be understood as a cycle of reincarnation, especially since we see a bit later the term "prison" specifically used in reference to the "body" (31,4), and also the metaphors of "chains" and "prison" used as a description of the incarnate state by the person responding to the redeemer's call (31,10).
The narrator of the Apocalypse of Paul portrays this scene as part of the visionary ascent:
But I saw in the fourth heaven according to class - I saw the angels resembling gods, the angels bringing a soul out of the land of the dead. They placed it at the gate of the fourth heaven. And the angels were whipping it. The soul spoke, saying, "What sin was it that I committed in the world?" The toll-collector who dwells in the fourth heaven replied, saying, "It was not right to commit all those lawless deeds that are in the world of the dead". The soul replied, saying, "Bring witnesses! Let them show you in what body I committed lawless deeds. Do you wish to bring a book to read from?"
And the three witnesses came. The first spoke, saying, "Was I not in the body the second hour [...]? I rose up against you until you fell into anger and rage and envy." And the second spoke, saying, "Was I not in the world? And I entered at the fifth hour, and I saw you and desired you. And behold, then, now I charge you with the murders you committed." The third spoke, saying, "Did I not come to you at the twelfth hour of the day when the sun was about to set? I gave you darkness until you should accomplish your sins." When the soul heard these things, it gazed downward in sorrow. And then it gazed upward. It was cast down. The soul that had been cast down went to a body which had been prepared for it. And behold, its witnesses were finished. (NHC V 20,5-21,22). This sounds like reincarnation to me.
In the third book of the Pistis Sophia, chapter 111, it says regarding the soul who lacks knowledge of the "mysteries" that it will first be subject to chastisement for its sins, and then: When, therefore, the time of the chastisements of that soul in the judgments of the rulers of the midst shall be completed, the counterfeiting spirit leadeth the soul up out of all the regions of the rulers of the midst and bringeth it before the light of the sun according to the commandment of the First Man, Yew, and bringeth it before the judge, the Virgin of Light. And she proveth that soul and findeth that it is a sinning soul, and casteth her light-power into it for its standing-upright and because of the body and the community of sense -- the type of which I will tell you at the expansion of the universe. And the Virgin of Light sealeth that soul and handeth it over to one of her receivers and will have it cast into a body which is suitable to the sins which it hath committed. This too sounds like reincarnation (and possibly even something like karma, since the body the soul receives corresponds to actions in the past life).
Also, patristic sources suggest that Basilides included reincarnation in his doctrine. For instance, Clement of Alexandria says in his Miscellanies that Basilides believes a soul "previously sinned in another life and undergoes its punishment in the present one. Excellent souls are punished honorably, by martyrdom; other kinds are purified by some other appropriate punishment." Origen, in his Commentary on the Epistle to the Romans, quotes Basilides as writing, "Indeed, the Apostle (Paul) has said, 'I was once alive apart from the law,' [Rom 7:9] at some time or other. That is (Paul means), before I came into this body, I lived in the kind of body that is not subject to the law: the body of a domestic animal or a bird."
So, though there may not have been any consensus among the Gnostics regarding possible reincarnation of psychics or hylics, and though some Gnostics seem to have definitely not believed it, these pieces of evidence suggest that there were at least some Gnostics who did. Therefore, any present neo-Gnostic who is inclined to believe in reincarnation has "scriptural" justification for doing so.
...and I'm sure that if I've badly misinterpreted any of these passages, PMCV will soon let us know!
[QUOTE=enki360]Here's my reasoning:
Gnostics say that we have a spark of the divine and transcendant Source (I like to use the word source because it's free of dogma) that has been trapped by the demiurge, who wants to keep all the divine sparks trapped in this universe. This is done with the aid of Archons, which bar the path of the soul as it leaves this world. Most souls don't make it past all the archons, so where do these souls go? The spark cannot be destroyed. It seems to me reincarnation is implied in gnostic thought, but I don't have the requisite knowledge to cite an example. well, it's back to digging through the Nag Hammadi Library![/QUOTE]
Enki, I agree with your reasoning on this subject. As for references in Gnostic-related writings, I think these can come into consideration:
The Apocryphon of John teaches the following regarding the outcome for those "who have not known to whom they belong" -- In those, the despicable spirit has gained strength when they went astray. And he burdens the soul and draws it to the works of evil, and he casts it down into forgetfulness. And after it comes out of (the body), it is handed over to the authorities, who came into being through the archon, and they bind it with chains and cast it into prison, and consort with it until it is liberated from the forgetfulness and acquires knowledge. And if thus it becomes perfect, it is saved (NHC II 26,33-27,11). It isn't explicit, but I think the casting of the unenlightened soul with "chains" into "prison" until it attains saving knowledge can be understood as a cycle of reincarnation, especially since we see a bit later the term "prison" specifically used in reference to the "body" (31,4), and also the metaphors of "chains" and "prison" used as a description of the incarnate state by the person responding to the redeemer's call (31,10).
The narrator of the Apocalypse of Paul portrays this scene as part of the visionary ascent:
But I saw in the fourth heaven according to class - I saw the angels resembling gods, the angels bringing a soul out of the land of the dead. They placed it at the gate of the fourth heaven. And the angels were whipping it. The soul spoke, saying, "What sin was it that I committed in the world?" The toll-collector who dwells in the fourth heaven replied, saying, "It was not right to commit all those lawless deeds that are in the world of the dead". The soul replied, saying, "Bring witnesses! Let them show you in what body I committed lawless deeds. Do you wish to bring a book to read from?"
And the three witnesses came. The first spoke, saying, "Was I not in the body the second hour [...]? I rose up against you until you fell into anger and rage and envy." And the second spoke, saying, "Was I not in the world? And I entered at the fifth hour, and I saw you and desired you. And behold, then, now I charge you with the murders you committed." The third spoke, saying, "Did I not come to you at the twelfth hour of the day when the sun was about to set? I gave you darkness until you should accomplish your sins." When the soul heard these things, it gazed downward in sorrow. And then it gazed upward. It was cast down. The soul that had been cast down went to a body which had been prepared for it. And behold, its witnesses were finished. (NHC V 20,5-21,22). This sounds like reincarnation to me.
In the third book of the Pistis Sophia, chapter 111, it says regarding the soul who lacks knowledge of the "mysteries" that it will first be subject to chastisement for its sins, and then: When, therefore, the time of the chastisements of that soul in the judgments of the rulers of the midst shall be completed, the counterfeiting spirit leadeth the soul up out of all the regions of the rulers of the midst and bringeth it before the light of the sun according to the commandment of the First Man, Yew, and bringeth it before the judge, the Virgin of Light. And she proveth that soul and findeth that it is a sinning soul, and casteth her light-power into it for its standing-upright and because of the body and the community of sense -- the type of which I will tell you at the expansion of the universe. And the Virgin of Light sealeth that soul and handeth it over to one of her receivers and will have it cast into a body which is suitable to the sins which it hath committed. This too sounds like reincarnation (and possibly even something like karma, since the body the soul receives corresponds to actions in the past life).
Also, patristic sources suggest that Basilides included reincarnation in his doctrine. For instance, Clement of Alexandria says in his Miscellanies that Basilides believes a soul "previously sinned in another life and undergoes its punishment in the present one. Excellent souls are punished honorably, by martyrdom; other kinds are purified by some other appropriate punishment." Origen, in his Commentary on the Epistle to the Romans, quotes Basilides as writing, "Indeed, the Apostle (Paul) has said, 'I was once alive apart from the law,' [Rom 7:9] at some time or other. That is (Paul means), before I came into this body, I lived in the kind of body that is not subject to the law: the body of a domestic animal or a bird."
So, though there may not have been any consensus among the Gnostics regarding possible reincarnation of psychics or hylics, and though some Gnostics seem to have definitely not believed it, these pieces of evidence suggest that there were at least some Gnostics who did. Therefore, any present neo-Gnostic who is inclined to believe in reincarnation has "scriptural" justification for doing so.
...and I'm sure that if I've badly misinterpreted any of these passages, PMCV will soon let us know!
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Original post: enki360
I just found the Pistis Sophia excerpt but you beat me to it. The others are quite provocative as well.
I just found the Pistis Sophia excerpt but you beat me to it. The others are quite provocative as well.
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Original post: Shepard of Arcadia
Good stuff! Thanks for the quotes SpaceDebris.
Good stuff! Thanks for the quotes SpaceDebris.
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Original post: Jenfucius
Hymmm?!! Transmigration vs. Reincarnation
I just find all this so interesting! Never thought of it that way. You learn something new everyday.
Hymmm?!! Transmigration vs. Reincarnation
I just find all this so interesting! Never thought of it that way. You learn something new everyday.
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Original post: occult lover no 5
probably usernames.......and the changes that go with them....body and all!
the first usernames were offline so......they still died and came alive again all the time!
goes back zillions of centuries and worlds far and wide!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
so having the correct username or screenname....is the best idea before you
make mistakes.ok
probably usernames.......and the changes that go with them....body and all!
the first usernames were offline so......they still died and came alive again all the time!
goes back zillions of centuries and worlds far and wide!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
so having the correct username or screenname....is the best idea before you
make mistakes.ok
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Original post: enki360
[QUOTE=occult lover no 5]probably usernames.......and the changes that go with them....body and all!
the first usernames were offline so......they still died and came alive again all the time!
goes back zillions of centuries and worlds far and wide!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
so having the correct username or screenname....is the best idea before you
make mistakes.ok[/QUOTE]
can you clarify that?
[QUOTE=occult lover no 5]probably usernames.......and the changes that go with them....body and all!
the first usernames were offline so......they still died and came alive again all the time!
goes back zillions of centuries and worlds far and wide!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
so having the correct username or screenname....is the best idea before you
make mistakes.ok[/QUOTE]
can you clarify that?
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Original post: SquirleyWurley
The main difference between such notions about souls being recycled in various bodies, in Gnostic thought, as opposed to many people's ideas about reincarnation today, is that the Gnostic view is more like the Buddhist view than the Hindu or New Age views, and NOTHING like the Sylvia Browne view (who unfortunately leaves many with the impression that her views on the subject are Gnostic when they are not) or Johnathan Edward's view.
As with Buddhism, the cycle of reincarnation is seen as part of a system of ignorance and suffering in the cosmos of chaos/samsara. The Gnostic call is to be free from this cycle, to rise out of this condition.
The main difference between such notions about souls being recycled in various bodies, in Gnostic thought, as opposed to many people's ideas about reincarnation today, is that the Gnostic view is more like the Buddhist view than the Hindu or New Age views, and NOTHING like the Sylvia Browne view (who unfortunately leaves many with the impression that her views on the subject are Gnostic when they are not) or Johnathan Edward's view.
As with Buddhism, the cycle of reincarnation is seen as part of a system of ignorance and suffering in the cosmos of chaos/samsara. The Gnostic call is to be free from this cycle, to rise out of this condition.
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Original post: enki360
[QUOTE=SquirleyWurley]The main difference between such notions about souls being recycled in various bodies, in Gnostic thought, as opposed to many people's ideas about reincarnation today, is that the Gnostic view is more like the Buddhist view than the Hindu or New Age views, and NOTHING like the Sylvia Browne view (who unfortunately leaves many with the impression that her views on the subject are Gnostic when they are not) or Johnathan Edward's view.
As with Buddhism, the cycle of reincarnation is seen as part of a system of ignorance and suffering in the cosmos of chaos/samsara. The Gnostic call is to be free from this cycle, to rise out of this condition.[/QUOTE]
I agree wholeheartedly, there are many convergences between Buddhism and Gnosticism. I think it would be a mistake to say they both came from the same tradition, but rather they came to some of the same conclusions about life, death, and the realm of the divine.
[QUOTE=SquirleyWurley]The main difference between such notions about souls being recycled in various bodies, in Gnostic thought, as opposed to many people's ideas about reincarnation today, is that the Gnostic view is more like the Buddhist view than the Hindu or New Age views, and NOTHING like the Sylvia Browne view (who unfortunately leaves many with the impression that her views on the subject are Gnostic when they are not) or Johnathan Edward's view.
As with Buddhism, the cycle of reincarnation is seen as part of a system of ignorance and suffering in the cosmos of chaos/samsara. The Gnostic call is to be free from this cycle, to rise out of this condition.[/QUOTE]
I agree wholeheartedly, there are many convergences between Buddhism and Gnosticism. I think it would be a mistake to say they both came from the same tradition, but rather they came to some of the same conclusions about life, death, and the realm of the divine.
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Original post: SquirleyWurley
I think they had at least indirect contact, as Buddhist missionaries were in Alexandria in BC times. There are things that are related between the traditions. To say more would be to speculate beyond the evidence. But some such speculations are very plausible. And some of those seem to be probable, to me. Nonetheless I agree the traditions are distinct and have their differences, and shouldn't be treated as the same.
I think they had at least indirect contact, as Buddhist missionaries were in Alexandria in BC times. There are things that are related between the traditions. To say more would be to speculate beyond the evidence. But some such speculations are very plausible. And some of those seem to be probable, to me. Nonetheless I agree the traditions are distinct and have their differences, and shouldn't be treated as the same.