Original post: Jaaks
[QUOTE=RhiannonB]Yes - you can call yourself what you like - the Gumshoe Fairy, an airline pilot, a dentist, a hairdresser.[/QUOTE]
Ohhh, I prefer rocket scientist or brain surgeon!! Sorry, I couldn't resist :mrgreen:
how can a solitary practitioner be an offical wiccan?
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
how can a solitary practitioner be an offical wiccan?
Original post: DevilsDelight
do people really think the gods, spirits and other entities that are dealt with on a daily basis really care if one has been initiated or not?
i suppose it would depend on what one would believe those creatures need to thrive in our world...but belief i think would be more important to them rather than if some person bowed before another person to be annointed with oil or if they annointed themselves.
that's the biggest issue i have with wicca, most who are out and spreading the word believe that one must be in a coven, must worship through a high priest or priestess to reach the gods, and a majority claim it's the one true and oldest pagan religion...sound like any other well known, younger religion?
it's become another organized religion, and it's not even as old as christianity...
do people really think the gods, spirits and other entities that are dealt with on a daily basis really care if one has been initiated or not?
i suppose it would depend on what one would believe those creatures need to thrive in our world...but belief i think would be more important to them rather than if some person bowed before another person to be annointed with oil or if they annointed themselves.
that's the biggest issue i have with wicca, most who are out and spreading the word believe that one must be in a coven, must worship through a high priest or priestess to reach the gods, and a majority claim it's the one true and oldest pagan religion...sound like any other well known, younger religion?
it's become another organized religion, and it's not even as old as christianity...
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
how can a solitary practitioner be an offical wiccan?
Original post: Seren
It depends on the type of Wiccan you want to be, really. Traditional Wiccans will generally recognise someone who has been initiated by a lineaged Wiccan, as a Wiccan...meaning you are initiated into Wicca by someone who you was initiated by someone who can trace thier back to some official person like Sanders or Gardner (for example).
Traditional Wiccans generally don't recognise self-initiation as possible, because they view initiation as being something that involves initiation into a group; hence the lineage issue. You are initiated into a group, to which you belong. Obviously there are religious aspects involved in initiation, but as a mystery tradition, the way in which you are prepared to receive those mysteries is as important as your reception into it. So in this sense, initiation by someone who is lineaged implies that you have been trained in a manner that means you can progress in the mysteries you will receive, in a capable manner. Hopefully that makes some sense.
For a start, to a traditional Wiccan, initiation is usually required in order for someone to claim the title "Wiccan", as far as I've encountered, anyway. In the early days, many initiates were initiated before they actually became officially involved with a coven - ie they were initiated in their first experience of a coven circle. These days, first degree initiation into a coven usually requires formal training of some sort beforehand, and perhaps even a dedication ritual.
Others who call themself Wiccan may never experience a group environment, or initiation, and learn from books or take from groups they've practised with, without official initiation. Authors like the Farrars and Cunningham have paved the way for the concept of self-initiation into a Wiccan path...But for some traditional Wiccans, I've seen them refute the idea of "self-initiation" and equate it with the idea of "self-dedication" into a Wiccan path instead.
Self-dedication effectively means you formally announce to your gods that this is the path you have chosen. They may choose to have some form of spiritual "initiation" at this point with you, but for a traditional Wiccan, they may not accept this; maybe it's initiation, but it's not initiation into their group, I guess. However, that doesn't mean it's irrelevant to your spiritual growth or development. Just that some people may not necessarily recognise it in an official sense...
Effectively, labels are what you make it. I guess there's a distinct definition between coven initiation, and self-initiation. And some people will lay emphasis on the former, rather than the latter.
It depends on the type of Wiccan you want to be, really. Traditional Wiccans will generally recognise someone who has been initiated by a lineaged Wiccan, as a Wiccan...meaning you are initiated into Wicca by someone who you was initiated by someone who can trace thier back to some official person like Sanders or Gardner (for example).
Traditional Wiccans generally don't recognise self-initiation as possible, because they view initiation as being something that involves initiation into a group; hence the lineage issue. You are initiated into a group, to which you belong. Obviously there are religious aspects involved in initiation, but as a mystery tradition, the way in which you are prepared to receive those mysteries is as important as your reception into it. So in this sense, initiation by someone who is lineaged implies that you have been trained in a manner that means you can progress in the mysteries you will receive, in a capable manner. Hopefully that makes some sense.
For a start, to a traditional Wiccan, initiation is usually required in order for someone to claim the title "Wiccan", as far as I've encountered, anyway. In the early days, many initiates were initiated before they actually became officially involved with a coven - ie they were initiated in their first experience of a coven circle. These days, first degree initiation into a coven usually requires formal training of some sort beforehand, and perhaps even a dedication ritual.
Others who call themself Wiccan may never experience a group environment, or initiation, and learn from books or take from groups they've practised with, without official initiation. Authors like the Farrars and Cunningham have paved the way for the concept of self-initiation into a Wiccan path...But for some traditional Wiccans, I've seen them refute the idea of "self-initiation" and equate it with the idea of "self-dedication" into a Wiccan path instead.
Self-dedication effectively means you formally announce to your gods that this is the path you have chosen. They may choose to have some form of spiritual "initiation" at this point with you, but for a traditional Wiccan, they may not accept this; maybe it's initiation, but it's not initiation into their group, I guess. However, that doesn't mean it's irrelevant to your spiritual growth or development. Just that some people may not necessarily recognise it in an official sense...
Effectively, labels are what you make it. I guess there's a distinct definition between coven initiation, and self-initiation. And some people will lay emphasis on the former, rather than the latter.
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
how can a solitary practitioner be an offical wiccan?
Original post: Delano
In Australia we have the CAW, though Wicca still isn't a recognised religion in itself.
See this government link for statistics:
http://www.abs.gov.au/websitedbs/D3310116.NSF/0/2e84d5487136560c4a256521002153ea?OpenDocument
Funny how some of the Catholics are so against Protestants, yet many follow their structure of belief daily.:lol:
Delano
doh wrote:No offense, but I just had to point out the Wicaa IS on officially recognized religion.
In Australia we have the CAW, though Wicca still isn't a recognised religion in itself.
See this government link for statistics:
http://www.abs.gov.au/websitedbs/D3310116.NSF/0/2e84d5487136560c4a256521002153ea?OpenDocument
The seven Broad Groups of the classification are:
- Buddhism
- Christianity
- Hinduism
- Islam
- Judaism
- Other Religions
- No Religion
doh wrote:Many folks I know claim to be Catholic but haven't stepped foot in a church in years.
Funny how some of the Catholics are so against Protestants, yet many follow their structure of belief daily.:lol:
Delano
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
how can a solitary practitioner be an offical wiccan?
Original post: Zhr Morgana
[QUOTE=MageX]Some people won't take your initiation seriously because it's a self-initiation.
Then again, even if a group did initiate you, some people wouldn't take that seriously either.
In other words, just do what you feel is right.[/QUOTE]
Sounds like a double-edged sword to me. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
[QUOTE=MageX]Some people won't take your initiation seriously because it's a self-initiation.
Then again, even if a group did initiate you, some people wouldn't take that seriously either.
In other words, just do what you feel is right.[/QUOTE]
Sounds like a double-edged sword to me. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
how can a solitary practitioner be an offical wiccan?
Original post: ChaosTech
You could always just skip all the BS too though and just be a magician, witch, wizard, sorcerer(ess), or whatever word you feel comfortable with that describes you as a practitioner of magick and or a believer in non-christian religion(s), i.e. neo-pagan, or even a Christian religion, your own brand of faith (eclecticism) or none at all if you wish (atheism, agnosticism).
Personally although I tried Wicca when I was a young teen, meaning I dabbled with the rituals, read alot on the religion, and most importantly did was I always wanted to do, that is magick, I soon realized the religion was not my thing. Infact I later found out, all religions are not my thing. Although their is no word that exactly desribes my "religion," or "religious outlook on life," or lack of, agnostic is about the close you can get to putting a label on me.
Even though I've met in person, many of the entities known as gods by Wiccans/NeoPagans, and they are very real and powerful, I do not consider them gods, or anything for that manner. I'm quite honest with myself, they are what they are, I don't have a clue what these beings are or where they come from, how they can exist, who or what created them, etc, but whatever they are, they are useful for magick and or help in life in general. I have lots of ideas and theories to what they are, but they are just that, ideas and theories.
The reason I share this is that, I have never performed a self initiation ritual, have never had anyone initiate me, and yet I have met these "gods," performed things most of the world believes is impossible, and gained wisdom and experiences I that often rival people who have been "practicing," or "initiated," or whatever, for 40+ years.
How can this be you traditionalists may wonder? Because all your pretty degrees, secrects, wisdom, knowlege, power, etc, etc, etc, despite what you would like to believe, belongs not just to you, but anyone who dares to seek it, by theirselves, within their own psyches, I might add. There is also, a ton of information floating around these days, accessable by the click of a mouse, weither in electronic or physical mediums. But I admit the second hand knowlege is arbitary to the real "hidden" knowlege that can only be gained through direct experience, but it's a good place to start, and often times acts like a safety net, to falling into your own dellusions, as magickal experiences, just like "mundane" ones, are very real, but interpretation is so prone to error it isn't funny.
So anyway, I know this is probably way above your head at this time, The_Theif, or not. But whatever the case, I hope I have not confused you, but shown you a bit of "real truth." That being that, you don't have to join anything, or be accpeted by anything, as well, to practice magick, and believe in whatever you want. Don't be a sheep, as sheep in my experience, don't grow very fast, instead be yourself, and tread your own path, not letting anyone try to violate your will, mind, beliefs, desires, etc. Look at the witches, wizards, shamans, sorcerers, etc, of old, very few of them, were part of any group, infact most all of them were lone wolves.
But priests and priestesses on the other hand I admit are usually always in a group. But not always, as the original priests, those being the priests of nature itself, aka shamans, were lone wolves as well.
I think the question you should ask yourself is, what is more important to you, practicing magick, or believing in a certain faith? Then remember, that all faiths, like all cultures, have had practitioners of magick within them. So in other words, be a wiccan practitioner, a christian practitioner, an native americian practitioner, an ancient culture revivalist practitioner (neo-pagan), etc, etc, etc.
Also, Wicca like all religions is devided between different groups who practice and view the faith a bit differently, these branches are called sects. Just like if you were a Christian, Hindu, Jew, etc, more than likely atleast once in your life you are going to meet a member of a different sect who will either view you as "lesser" in some way, or even downright say you are not a "true Wiccan," like a Protestant Christian telling a Catholic they are not a "real" or "true" Christian.
In a perfect world everyone and every faith including it's sects, would get along. But this isn't a perfect world by far, and this is impossible anyway, as to be an individual is to be in conflict with other individuals, so be prepared to meet those who will oppose you, even those who largely believe the very same as you do.
Everything humans know, has been earned by individuals who dared to ask. Other humans can teach alot, but what is known collectively and what can be given to others via communication is tiny, compared to what the cosmos knows and gives to those who dare ask, via experience.
The cosmos doesn't recognise copyrights, and anyone who dares to claim anything as there own, weither knowlege, or applied knowlege (power), is a fool. As what was earned by them can be earned by anyone willing enough to tred into the unknown (ask, try, etc, i.e. dare). As nothing is truely given, and everything is earned.
Although I'm not Christian, I was raised in a Christian family. The Biblical verses, "seek and ye shall find," and "let those who have ears, listen," have never steered me wrong. As they embrase the concepts of determination (will, courage) and humbleness (honesty).
We all know somethings, but what we all don't know is titanic in comparasion to what we know. Humans as a whole are pathetic, as bloated egos, are plentyful. As I said be an individual (lonewolf), not a slave (sheep). Follow your heart, and manifest what it tells you with your head, constantly checking one another, with each. That is unless you want to be a sheep, as I admit the lonewolf path is well a lonely one, and filled with danger, as it requires you to be honest with yourself and so responsible for everything you do and are. It's much easier to just let someone tell you what to do, but is it? As betraying yourself leads to nowhere but unhappiness, and besides you are still the one responsible for everything you do and are, as no one can make you do anything, as you are the master of you, even if you choose to remain ignorant of this.
Best of luck, and do what you will. Forget the initiation stuff, do a self initiation ritual, or join a group, in the end we are all initiated every moment by the cosmos and ourself (the same thing, as we are merely a pice of the cosmic pie), as to be initiated simply means to begin, and to begin is to act, awarely or not, plain and simple.
You could always just skip all the BS too though and just be a magician, witch, wizard, sorcerer(ess), or whatever word you feel comfortable with that describes you as a practitioner of magick and or a believer in non-christian religion(s), i.e. neo-pagan, or even a Christian religion, your own brand of faith (eclecticism) or none at all if you wish (atheism, agnosticism).
Personally although I tried Wicca when I was a young teen, meaning I dabbled with the rituals, read alot on the religion, and most importantly did was I always wanted to do, that is magick, I soon realized the religion was not my thing. Infact I later found out, all religions are not my thing. Although their is no word that exactly desribes my "religion," or "religious outlook on life," or lack of, agnostic is about the close you can get to putting a label on me.
Even though I've met in person, many of the entities known as gods by Wiccans/NeoPagans, and they are very real and powerful, I do not consider them gods, or anything for that manner. I'm quite honest with myself, they are what they are, I don't have a clue what these beings are or where they come from, how they can exist, who or what created them, etc, but whatever they are, they are useful for magick and or help in life in general. I have lots of ideas and theories to what they are, but they are just that, ideas and theories.
The reason I share this is that, I have never performed a self initiation ritual, have never had anyone initiate me, and yet I have met these "gods," performed things most of the world believes is impossible, and gained wisdom and experiences I that often rival people who have been "practicing," or "initiated," or whatever, for 40+ years.
How can this be you traditionalists may wonder? Because all your pretty degrees, secrects, wisdom, knowlege, power, etc, etc, etc, despite what you would like to believe, belongs not just to you, but anyone who dares to seek it, by theirselves, within their own psyches, I might add. There is also, a ton of information floating around these days, accessable by the click of a mouse, weither in electronic or physical mediums. But I admit the second hand knowlege is arbitary to the real "hidden" knowlege that can only be gained through direct experience, but it's a good place to start, and often times acts like a safety net, to falling into your own dellusions, as magickal experiences, just like "mundane" ones, are very real, but interpretation is so prone to error it isn't funny.
So anyway, I know this is probably way above your head at this time, The_Theif, or not. But whatever the case, I hope I have not confused you, but shown you a bit of "real truth." That being that, you don't have to join anything, or be accpeted by anything, as well, to practice magick, and believe in whatever you want. Don't be a sheep, as sheep in my experience, don't grow very fast, instead be yourself, and tread your own path, not letting anyone try to violate your will, mind, beliefs, desires, etc. Look at the witches, wizards, shamans, sorcerers, etc, of old, very few of them, were part of any group, infact most all of them were lone wolves.
But priests and priestesses on the other hand I admit are usually always in a group. But not always, as the original priests, those being the priests of nature itself, aka shamans, were lone wolves as well.
I think the question you should ask yourself is, what is more important to you, practicing magick, or believing in a certain faith? Then remember, that all faiths, like all cultures, have had practitioners of magick within them. So in other words, be a wiccan practitioner, a christian practitioner, an native americian practitioner, an ancient culture revivalist practitioner (neo-pagan), etc, etc, etc.
Also, Wicca like all religions is devided between different groups who practice and view the faith a bit differently, these branches are called sects. Just like if you were a Christian, Hindu, Jew, etc, more than likely atleast once in your life you are going to meet a member of a different sect who will either view you as "lesser" in some way, or even downright say you are not a "true Wiccan," like a Protestant Christian telling a Catholic they are not a "real" or "true" Christian.
In a perfect world everyone and every faith including it's sects, would get along. But this isn't a perfect world by far, and this is impossible anyway, as to be an individual is to be in conflict with other individuals, so be prepared to meet those who will oppose you, even those who largely believe the very same as you do.
Everything humans know, has been earned by individuals who dared to ask. Other humans can teach alot, but what is known collectively and what can be given to others via communication is tiny, compared to what the cosmos knows and gives to those who dare ask, via experience.
The cosmos doesn't recognise copyrights, and anyone who dares to claim anything as there own, weither knowlege, or applied knowlege (power), is a fool. As what was earned by them can be earned by anyone willing enough to tred into the unknown (ask, try, etc, i.e. dare). As nothing is truely given, and everything is earned.
Although I'm not Christian, I was raised in a Christian family. The Biblical verses, "seek and ye shall find," and "let those who have ears, listen," have never steered me wrong. As they embrase the concepts of determination (will, courage) and humbleness (honesty).
We all know somethings, but what we all don't know is titanic in comparasion to what we know. Humans as a whole are pathetic, as bloated egos, are plentyful. As I said be an individual (lonewolf), not a slave (sheep). Follow your heart, and manifest what it tells you with your head, constantly checking one another, with each. That is unless you want to be a sheep, as I admit the lonewolf path is well a lonely one, and filled with danger, as it requires you to be honest with yourself and so responsible for everything you do and are. It's much easier to just let someone tell you what to do, but is it? As betraying yourself leads to nowhere but unhappiness, and besides you are still the one responsible for everything you do and are, as no one can make you do anything, as you are the master of you, even if you choose to remain ignorant of this.
Best of luck, and do what you will. Forget the initiation stuff, do a self initiation ritual, or join a group, in the end we are all initiated every moment by the cosmos and ourself (the same thing, as we are merely a pice of the cosmic pie), as to be initiated simply means to begin, and to begin is to act, awarely or not, plain and simple.
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
how can a solitary practitioner be an offical wiccan?
Original post: Raven_Storm
i'm solitary witch too, and i had the same question's as you do the_theif but i did a self-initiation on september 26th of this month and what it is that you affrim yourself to the lord and lady that is basically what a self-initiation is.
Being a solitary is not a bad thing, So dont be thinking your a coven outcast just because your not in a coven..
i'm solitary witch too, and i had the same question's as you do the_theif but i did a self-initiation on september 26th of this month and what it is that you affrim yourself to the lord and lady that is basically what a self-initiation is.
Being a solitary is not a bad thing, So dont be thinking your a coven outcast just because your not in a coven..
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
how can a solitary practitioner be an offical wiccan?
Original post: Alkhemia
Alkhemia
Hmmmm...ChaosTech wrote:I have met these "gods," performed things most of the world believes is impossible, and gained wisdom and experiences I that often rival people who have been "practicing," or "initiated," or whatever, for 40+ years.
Sorry, but this is simply not true. Such sentiments might be 'empowering' and may bolster egos, but there are plenty of paths where knowledge is not open to everyone who comes knocking. Native Americans, some sects of Vodoun, plenty of Orthodox Jewish Kabbalistic groups, etc. - many of these are culturally-specific paths and they will rightfully turn away those who are outsiders, no matter how sincere they might be. Folks may believe that they are entitled to everything under the sun, that knowledge is free and that they have the wisdom to do whatever they please - that doesn't make it so.despite what you would like to believe, belongs not just to you, but anyone who dares to seek it, by theirselves, within their own psyches, I might add.
I will agree with this 100%. At a certain point, groups will have a detrimental effect on progress - especially when someone creates an identity that is limited by a given magickal affiliation (e.g., I'm a Gardnerian, I'm a Setian, I'm in the IOT, I'm in the GD, etc.). Such labels may be helpful for a time, but there comes a point when the 'group' cannot progress for you and you have to cross the Abyss (or enter the Dark Night of the Soul) alone.Look at the witches, wizards, shamans, sorcerers, etc, of old, very few of them, were part of any group, infact most all of them were lone wolves.
I guess this is directed at the original poster, but you bring up an interesting point; isn't the goal for us to become our own Priests and Priestesses and to transcend our dependence upon groupthink and hierarchical structures? Since Wicca is a specific path with a specific protocol, I can understand the objection to anyone with a Scott Cunningham book and an athame calling themselves a "Wiccan." Nevertheless, they do not have a monopoly on illumination and one can certainly be a pagan, witch, whatever, without belonging to a Gardnerian or Alexandrian coven.But priests and priestesses on the other hand I admit are usually always in a group.
Not necessarily. Struggle and conflict are part of existence and evolution - it's a tough world. Maybe I'm an elitist, but I don't think that all opinions are valid, I don't think that everything is relative and I have little interest in getting along with everyone. These RHP ideals may work in theory, but I have yet to see them be validated in the 'real world.'In a perfect world everyone and every faith including it's sects, would get along.
Alkhemia
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
how can a solitary practitioner be an offical wiccan?
Original post: Nalyd23
Like I said earlier, it matters not what anyone else thinks and if you feel it does then you have a ways to go.
Become who you are and follow your Will alone and you can't go wrong. As for everyone else you encounter, f*ck 'em if that can't take a joke.:mrgreen:
Like I said earlier, it matters not what anyone else thinks and if you feel it does then you have a ways to go.
Become who you are and follow your Will alone and you can't go wrong. As for everyone else you encounter, f*ck 'em if that can't take a joke.:mrgreen:-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
how can a solitary practitioner be an offical wiccan?
Original post: katz54
I've heard so much "I'm a witch and you're not" comeing out of covens that I'm of the opinion that a lot of them are more 'in croud' oriented than spiritually oriented. Ego's were rampant in the two or three that i had contact with. I'd rather burn candles at cross roads than put up with a lot of bickering old women.
I've heard so much "I'm a witch and you're not" comeing out of covens that I'm of the opinion that a lot of them are more 'in croud' oriented than spiritually oriented. Ego's were rampant in the two or three that i had contact with. I'd rather burn candles at cross roads than put up with a lot of bickering old women.
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
how can a solitary practitioner be an offical wiccan?
Original post: Samhain
I consider myself to be a carpenter. Not that I ever apprenticed or joined the carpenter's union. But I've always liked trees.
A Wiccan is someone who's been initiated into a coven that can trace its lineage back to Gerald Gardner. In other words, a Gardnerian coven, or a coven from a tradition with Gardnerian roots, such as Alexandrian. Anyone else isn't a Wiccan. But why would you want to be able to call yourself a Wiccan? Everyone else is constantly criticising Wiccans anyway. And even if a coven did accept you as a Wiccan, they still wouldn't let you circle with them until you went through their own training and initiation system. Initiation into one tradition or lineage doesn't give you acceptance into another tradition or lineage. There are some very sound magical reasons for that. And, IMO, those who criticise this approach don't simply understand what an initiatory path is.
I consider myself to be a carpenter. Not that I ever apprenticed or joined the carpenter's union. But I've always liked trees.
A Wiccan is someone who's been initiated into a coven that can trace its lineage back to Gerald Gardner. In other words, a Gardnerian coven, or a coven from a tradition with Gardnerian roots, such as Alexandrian. Anyone else isn't a Wiccan. But why would you want to be able to call yourself a Wiccan? Everyone else is constantly criticising Wiccans anyway. And even if a coven did accept you as a Wiccan, they still wouldn't let you circle with them until you went through their own training and initiation system. Initiation into one tradition or lineage doesn't give you acceptance into another tradition or lineage. There are some very sound magical reasons for that. And, IMO, those who criticise this approach don't simply understand what an initiatory path is.
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
how can a solitary practitioner be an offical wiccan?
Original post: endor957
nalyd, checked the sight and it's decent. Good points to take up.
I see that chaos magick and my psychomagick runs very close lines at parallel.
nalyd, checked the sight and it's decent. Good points to take up.
I see that chaos magick and my psychomagick runs very close lines at parallel.
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
how can a solitary practitioner be an offical wiccan?
Original post: Jenfucius
I would hate to see wicca or any form of paganism beliefs turn into some sort of religous dogma. Much like how most Christian organizations and churches has become. At the same time I wouldnt want to see frauds and charlatans jumping at the opportunity to give themselves some name or title because its popular or can make him lots of money. There doesnt seem to be any easy answers to this. Darn labels.
I would hate to see wicca or any form of paganism beliefs turn into some sort of religous dogma. Much like how most Christian organizations and churches has become. At the same time I wouldnt want to see frauds and charlatans jumping at the opportunity to give themselves some name or title because its popular or can make him lots of money. There doesnt seem to be any easy answers to this. Darn labels.
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
how can a solitary practitioner be an offical wiccan?
Original post: Nalyd23
Technically, you could say that "Christian organizations and churches" are somewhat a result of turning pagan beliefs and practices into religious dogma.
Technically, you could say that "Christian organizations and churches" are somewhat a result of turning pagan beliefs and practices into religious dogma.
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
how can a solitary practitioner be an offical wiccan?
Original post: Jenfucius
In a way you are right Nalyd. I.e. the Catholic church historically has adopted pagan holidays and perhaps other rituals for their own ends.
In a way you are right Nalyd. I.e. the Catholic church historically has adopted pagan holidays and perhaps other rituals for their own ends.
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
how can a solitary practitioner be an offical wiccan?
Original post: ChaosTech
Find your own link, as "it" is all "you" need. No entity, human or not, can give you even a fraction of what the divine within you can offer.
You misunderstood what I ment. What I mean is that basicly "all roads lead to rome," some are very dangerious mind you, but all the wisdom and knowlege contained within any one group, tradition, order, etc, didn't orginate with them, as all things come from the "God/Goddess/Source/All/Tao/One/Etc."despite what you would like to believe, belongs not just to you, but anyone who dares to seek it, by theirselves, within their own psyches, I might add.
Sorry, but this is simply not true. Such sentiments might be 'empowering' and may bolster egos, but there are plenty of paths where knowledge is not open to everyone who comes knocking. Native Americans, some sects of Vodoun, plenty of Orthodox Jewish Kabbalistic groups, etc. - many of these are culturally-specific paths and they will rightfully turn away those who are outsiders, no matter how sincere they might be. Folks may believe that they are entitled to everything under the sun, that knowledge is free and that they have the wisdom to do whatever they please - that doesn't make it so.
Find your own link, as "it" is all "you" need. No entity, human or not, can give you even a fraction of what the divine within you can offer.
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
how can a solitary practitioner be an offical wiccan?
Original post: Samhain
It comes down to this. Despite what you may have read in that paperback that you bought at Chapters (replace Chapters with the name of the big box book store in your own country), Wicca is not a religion, although it's based on Pagan religious concepts, and has influenced many people to embrace Paganism. Wicca is an initiatory mystery tradition, and if you haven't been initiated into the particular spiritual stream that is Wicca, you aren't a Wiccan. Of course, you could call yourself a Wiccan if you want to. You could also call yourself a tree frog or a welding torch if you want to. That doesn't mean that you are one. Of course, anyone can choose to be a Pagan witch just by embracing certain beliefs and practices, without needing any sort of initiation. So why call yourself a Wiccan?
It comes down to this. Despite what you may have read in that paperback that you bought at Chapters (replace Chapters with the name of the big box book store in your own country), Wicca is not a religion, although it's based on Pagan religious concepts, and has influenced many people to embrace Paganism. Wicca is an initiatory mystery tradition, and if you haven't been initiated into the particular spiritual stream that is Wicca, you aren't a Wiccan. Of course, you could call yourself a Wiccan if you want to. You could also call yourself a tree frog or a welding torch if you want to. That doesn't mean that you are one. Of course, anyone can choose to be a Pagan witch just by embracing certain beliefs and practices, without needing any sort of initiation. So why call yourself a Wiccan?
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
how can a solitary practitioner be an offical wiccan?
Original post: ChaosTech
Well today I have self nominated myself as being an offical ninja! I don't care what any of you say, even if I know next to nothing about ninjitsu, I am a ninja damn it! Hi'ya!
Besides ninja's are way cooler than wiccans anyday. Jump abord the band wagon. I am grand master ChaosTech, anyone who wishes to be a ninja, just say so and I will make you an official ninja.
Because who needs magic anyway, when you are masked in black, wield a ninja-to, and throwing stars?* If you need anything, you can simply take it from others who already have it.
*Ninja-to, throwing stars, and black ninja outfits sold seperately. I suggest ebay for all your ninja needs.
Well today I have self nominated myself as being an offical ninja! I don't care what any of you say, even if I know next to nothing about ninjitsu, I am a ninja damn it! Hi'ya!
Besides ninja's are way cooler than wiccans anyday. Jump abord the band wagon. I am grand master ChaosTech, anyone who wishes to be a ninja, just say so and I will make you an official ninja.
Because who needs magic anyway, when you are masked in black, wield a ninja-to, and throwing stars?* If you need anything, you can simply take it from others who already have it.
*Ninja-to, throwing stars, and black ninja outfits sold seperately. I suggest ebay for all your ninja needs.
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
how can a solitary practitioner be an offical wiccan?
Original post: Delano
Why is this thread so long? Does it take this many people to screw in a lightbulb ?
I don't want to be a ninja, I want to be an expert at that cooool new sport that crosses karate and breakdancing, it comes from Brazil and its really tribal and so spiritual & they get cool shaman music & & &..... :razz:Besides ninja's are way cooler than wiccans anyday. Jump abord the band wagon. I am grand master ChaosTech, anyone who wishes to be a ninja, just say so and I will make you an official ninja.
Why is this thread so long? Does it take this many people to screw in a lightbulb ?
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
how can a solitary practitioner be an offical wiccan?
Original post: fiat_lux_777
93
[QUOTE=ShekinahMoon]Wicca is not a denomination. There is no official "Wiccan church". [/quote] Damn - this topic seems to come up regular as clockwork. Please understand that Wicca is a *specific" religious practice/mystery tradition, the inner core of which is *only* known to initiates. To be a Wiccan you must be initiated. It is a lineaged tradition wherein the HPS must be able to be traced back directly to Gardner's founding covens. Simple as that.
Anything else is Wiccan-derived. This does not denigrate your practice in any way, shape or form. It's just correct appellation.
The same applies to magical Orders such as the Golden Dawn - you cannot simply adopt their practices and become a member of the Golden Dawn. You can work the curriculum and advance personally, but this does not grant membership in any way, shape or form.
It's a tough world.
93 93/93
Todd
93
[QUOTE=ShekinahMoon]Wicca is not a denomination. There is no official "Wiccan church". [/quote] Damn - this topic seems to come up regular as clockwork. Please understand that Wicca is a *specific" religious practice/mystery tradition, the inner core of which is *only* known to initiates. To be a Wiccan you must be initiated. It is a lineaged tradition wherein the HPS must be able to be traced back directly to Gardner's founding covens. Simple as that.
Anything else is Wiccan-derived. This does not denigrate your practice in any way, shape or form. It's just correct appellation.
The same applies to magical Orders such as the Golden Dawn - you cannot simply adopt their practices and become a member of the Golden Dawn. You can work the curriculum and advance personally, but this does not grant membership in any way, shape or form.
It's a tough world.
93 93/93
Todd
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
how can a solitary practitioner be an offical wiccan?
Original post: starlore
"I would hate to see wicca or any form of paganism beliefs turn into some sort of religous dogma. Much like how most Christian organizations and churches has become."
Its well on its way if not already there and i'm surprised there aren't more "first wiccan churches" to parody the "first baptist churches" that you find everywhere you travel. My husband and i travel from mo to fl once/yr to visit my brood, and i can't tell you the amt of first baptist churches we see along the way (mainly b/c i lost count).
i've never initiated into a coven. my experience with a circle was damaging enough - that paired with greater interest in solitary operations have driven me to an ecclectic solitary path. I've never even 'formally' self-initiated - the only thing i've sworn and vowed to in this regard was that this is the path for me but that it will always be subject to change - and sure as i stand here i've passed through many phases of such change along my path within the past decade of practice. I think the simple acknowledgement was all that was necessary.
I'm still damned curious as to how others practice, but i enjoy the solitary path way too much to ever dedicate myself to a coven. But if that means that my path is not recognized by ppl who cling too tightly to dogmas then that's their problem. Witch, wiccan, pagan, mage..etc.. its not important but ppl like labels it seems. However it does rather offend me when ppl refer to my practice as wiccan because i feel they take so little an interest in listening to what i have to say that i am automatically clumped into a pre-conceived ideal - particularly by people who don't know the first thing about it. This perceived offence may also be due to the fact that so many help uphold the perception that Wicca rejects all darkness and embraces only light (while i haven't spoken to every wiccan in the world i cannot assume that is how all feel, but from those i have talked to who give it an imbalanced slant - it certainly helps to propagate the perception of excess).
"I would hate to see wicca or any form of paganism beliefs turn into some sort of religous dogma. Much like how most Christian organizations and churches has become."
Its well on its way if not already there and i'm surprised there aren't more "first wiccan churches" to parody the "first baptist churches" that you find everywhere you travel. My husband and i travel from mo to fl once/yr to visit my brood, and i can't tell you the amt of first baptist churches we see along the way (mainly b/c i lost count).
i've never initiated into a coven. my experience with a circle was damaging enough - that paired with greater interest in solitary operations have driven me to an ecclectic solitary path. I've never even 'formally' self-initiated - the only thing i've sworn and vowed to in this regard was that this is the path for me but that it will always be subject to change - and sure as i stand here i've passed through many phases of such change along my path within the past decade of practice. I think the simple acknowledgement was all that was necessary.
I'm still damned curious as to how others practice, but i enjoy the solitary path way too much to ever dedicate myself to a coven. But if that means that my path is not recognized by ppl who cling too tightly to dogmas then that's their problem. Witch, wiccan, pagan, mage..etc.. its not important but ppl like labels it seems. However it does rather offend me when ppl refer to my practice as wiccan because i feel they take so little an interest in listening to what i have to say that i am automatically clumped into a pre-conceived ideal - particularly by people who don't know the first thing about it. This perceived offence may also be due to the fact that so many help uphold the perception that Wicca rejects all darkness and embraces only light (while i haven't spoken to every wiccan in the world i cannot assume that is how all feel, but from those i have talked to who give it an imbalanced slant - it certainly helps to propagate the perception of excess).
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
how can a solitary practitioner be an offical wiccan?
Original post: Samhain
[QUOTE=starlore]
................
However it does rather offend me when ppl refer to my practice as wiccan because i feel they take so little an interest in listening to what i have to say that i am automatically clumped into a pre-conceived ideal - particularly by people who don't know the first thing about it. This perceived offence may also be due to the fact that so many help uphold the perception that Wicca rejects all darkness and embraces only light (while i haven't spoken to every wiccan in the world i cannot assume that is how all feel, but from those i have talked to who give it an imbalanced slant - it certainly helps to propagate the perception of excess).
[/QUOTE]You can be quite sure that any "Wiccan" who thinks that the world is all bunnies and sunshine isn't Wiccan at all, but is instead someone who decided to call themselves Wiccan after reading a paperback that provided a very shallow and inaccurate picture of Wicca.
It's because of shoddy writing that a lot of people have the mistaken notion that "Wiccan" is synonynous with "naive newbie Neo-Pagan". I can't tell you how many times I've had people tell me that they're Wiccan, then demonstrate that they have absolutely no knowledge of the subject. Then there are the people who criticize others for being Wiccan on the basis of bizarre misconceptions of what Wicca is. Perhaps we can't really blame these people when there are so many misleading books on the subject, but it does get irritating at times. I wish that there were more people who could just admit that they were creating their own version of Paganism and/or witchcraft without claiming to be Wiccan. But I think that we'd have to take a whole lot of shoddy writers to the vet and have them put down before that will happen.
[QUOTE=starlore]
................
However it does rather offend me when ppl refer to my practice as wiccan because i feel they take so little an interest in listening to what i have to say that i am automatically clumped into a pre-conceived ideal - particularly by people who don't know the first thing about it. This perceived offence may also be due to the fact that so many help uphold the perception that Wicca rejects all darkness and embraces only light (while i haven't spoken to every wiccan in the world i cannot assume that is how all feel, but from those i have talked to who give it an imbalanced slant - it certainly helps to propagate the perception of excess).
[/QUOTE]You can be quite sure that any "Wiccan" who thinks that the world is all bunnies and sunshine isn't Wiccan at all, but is instead someone who decided to call themselves Wiccan after reading a paperback that provided a very shallow and inaccurate picture of Wicca.
It's because of shoddy writing that a lot of people have the mistaken notion that "Wiccan" is synonynous with "naive newbie Neo-Pagan". I can't tell you how many times I've had people tell me that they're Wiccan, then demonstrate that they have absolutely no knowledge of the subject. Then there are the people who criticize others for being Wiccan on the basis of bizarre misconceptions of what Wicca is. Perhaps we can't really blame these people when there are so many misleading books on the subject, but it does get irritating at times. I wish that there were more people who could just admit that they were creating their own version of Paganism and/or witchcraft without claiming to be Wiccan. But I think that we'd have to take a whole lot of shoddy writers to the vet and have them put down before that will happen.
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
how can a solitary practitioner be an offical wiccan?
Original post: MageX
From CNN.com:
POPE DECRIES MISLABELING; MILLIONS CONTRITE
VATICAN CITY, ROME - This morning Pope John Paul II released an announcement that shook the churches of the world.
"It has come to our attention," the Pope wrote in his bull Contra fraudatum, "that many people outside of Holy Mother Church are calling themselves Christians. There are many more of you Protestants, Orthodox, and other sectarians than there are of us, but the Church has held this label in trust since the time of Peter. We call upon all those who have taken this false term upon their faith to cast it off. Why not call yourselves Reformed Jews? That's a perfectly respectable label."
The reaction around the world was one of extreme shock, followed by deep remorse and shows of penitence.
"I want to personally express my deep apologies to the Pope," said Pat Robertson of the newly-renamed Reformed Jewish Coalition. "We want to move forward, Catholics and Protestants, Jews and - er - Reformed Jews - um - and Christians into a new age of tolerance and understanding of Our Lord."
The decision was not seen with welcome by some.
"It was confusing enough explaining our doctrines to the goyim," said a rabbi who wished to remain anonymous. "Still, we have great respect for the Pope and our formerly Christian neighbors. I've consulted with my colleagues, and we've decided that we will henceforth be called Orthodox Reformed Jews."
From CNN.com:
POPE DECRIES MISLABELING; MILLIONS CONTRITE
VATICAN CITY, ROME - This morning Pope John Paul II released an announcement that shook the churches of the world.
"It has come to our attention," the Pope wrote in his bull Contra fraudatum, "that many people outside of Holy Mother Church are calling themselves Christians. There are many more of you Protestants, Orthodox, and other sectarians than there are of us, but the Church has held this label in trust since the time of Peter. We call upon all those who have taken this false term upon their faith to cast it off. Why not call yourselves Reformed Jews? That's a perfectly respectable label."
The reaction around the world was one of extreme shock, followed by deep remorse and shows of penitence.
"I want to personally express my deep apologies to the Pope," said Pat Robertson of the newly-renamed Reformed Jewish Coalition. "We want to move forward, Catholics and Protestants, Jews and - er - Reformed Jews - um - and Christians into a new age of tolerance and understanding of Our Lord."
The decision was not seen with welcome by some.
"It was confusing enough explaining our doctrines to the goyim," said a rabbi who wished to remain anonymous. "Still, we have great respect for the Pope and our formerly Christian neighbors. I've consulted with my colleagues, and we've decided that we will henceforth be called Orthodox Reformed Jews."
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
how can a solitary practitioner be an offical wiccan?
Original post: Samhain
Okay, MageX, I have to admit that was funny. But I stand by what I said in my last post.
Okay, MageX, I have to admit that was funny. But I stand by what I said in my last post.
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
how can a solitary practitioner be an offical wiccan?
Original post: phoenix_shadowwolf
wicca has a recent creator, because wicca was created recently. gerald gardner made the religion of wicca. regardless of his influences, borrowings, and blatant batterings of fact, gardner made this religion. which means, he made the rules, too.
while i have yet to find the exact source of where gardner says that in order to be a wiccan, one must be initiated by a lineaged coven, i'm still searcing.
i can understand slightly. only the 'outer court' material, or the basic beliefs, have been published, for all to read and consider. while there is the whole, 'it's a mystery-based religion' thing, and it is slightly accurate in that the 'inner court' material is not widely known, gardner still had no problem with propaganda, and advertising his creation.
however, i've had a problem as of late. i've been involved with many a discussion in this matter, and i come to think about it often. while gardner may have said that one needed to be initiated, why is one of his followers, someone who was taught directly by gardner, publishing books geared to solitary practitioners and self-initiates? i've also been told by some wiccans that they do accept some self-initiates if they adhere to the dogma of gardner's religion.
moreso though, i've found that the people who actually have a problem with solitary wiccans, are those who aren't of the 'orthodox' faith either.
wicca has a recent creator, because wicca was created recently. gerald gardner made the religion of wicca. regardless of his influences, borrowings, and blatant batterings of fact, gardner made this religion. which means, he made the rules, too.
while i have yet to find the exact source of where gardner says that in order to be a wiccan, one must be initiated by a lineaged coven, i'm still searcing.
i can understand slightly. only the 'outer court' material, or the basic beliefs, have been published, for all to read and consider. while there is the whole, 'it's a mystery-based religion' thing, and it is slightly accurate in that the 'inner court' material is not widely known, gardner still had no problem with propaganda, and advertising his creation.
however, i've had a problem as of late. i've been involved with many a discussion in this matter, and i come to think about it often. while gardner may have said that one needed to be initiated, why is one of his followers, someone who was taught directly by gardner, publishing books geared to solitary practitioners and self-initiates? i've also been told by some wiccans that they do accept some self-initiates if they adhere to the dogma of gardner's religion.
moreso though, i've found that the people who actually have a problem with solitary wiccans, are those who aren't of the 'orthodox' faith either.