Original post: Centrix
Here is a reply most likely to a JoS member from a person on another forum. It makes alot of sense:
I've been working covertly through several different threads
to coax out you traditional satanists under the banner of
cooperation to find out exactly "what is your tradition." Well,
enough the facade... I know that traditional satanists have no
tradition whatsoever, and even though you said:
The biggest misunderstanding here by the "modern" satanists seem to
be the idea that traditional satanists are people in need of
something to believe in, just like christians or any other
pathetic "white" religion.
That's exactly what is going on here. enki follower has already done
my job for me in displaying his lack of logical integrity. The
worship, belief in, or strong adherence to the supposed deeds of
deities like Enki/Ea, Set, etc. are not Satanism because religious
activities involving these ideas/deities already exists under other
names. No one worshipping Enki way back in the day called
him/herself a Satanist, and thus they are not one. Pagans
worshipping Dionysus did not call themselves Satanists, and once
again, that means they aren't Satanists. "Traditional" Satanists
have only created themselves after, and in reaction to LaVey's
writing. Like it or not, it is LaVey who "beat everyone to the
punch" and actually defined what Satanism is, as a unique blend
(that did not exist before it) of existent religious and secular
philosophies. "Traditional" Satanists want to claim some sort of
tradition that they called Satanism through the centuries, but there
is no tradition, and thus "Traditional Satanism" is a misnomer*,
created by people who think that a religious ideal's relative truth
is determined by its age (which is why you see such an effort on
their part to affiliate their views with the most ancient religious
traditions possible).
"Traditional Satanists" don't like the atheistic/nihilistic tenets
of Satanism and do, in fact, search for "spirituality" of some
variety or another and thus have tried to claim that forms
of "spiritual Satanism" have existed for aeons and aeons (or some
other term denoting "a really long time") when in fact, the
religions and practices they are referring to already have other
names. Because of this, I endorse names like "Luciferianism" because
they denote entirely different practices from Satanism, which is the
religion/philosophy built up around LaVey's writings. Trying to re-
name Satanism because you don't believe in one of its most central
tenets is like saying you're Christian when you don't even believe
in the divinity of Jesus/Yeshua. Sorry folks, that means you can't
be a Christian. The same rules apply here. I know, it sucks, but you
guys can come up with your own religion like Luciferianism or
whatever.
Normally, I would see attempts at innovation in Satanism to be a
healthy process, but since the atheistic tenet is so central, so
aesthetically pertinent, and so absolutley important to the entire
system built up around it, I cringe at the thought of anyone
attempting to create a "theistic" Satanism.
Traditional Satanism--does it exist?
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Traditional Satanism--does it exist?
Original post: Scholomancer
I'm sorry to disappoint you, but LaVey's tradition is not original and is based on an older more clandestine tradition dating back to at least the 1200's.
I have personally seen family grimoires dating back to at least 1517, naming Satan and eight other "divinities" as overseers. This is in part derived from the Yezidic tradition which also names several divinities as overseers of our world, Malek Taus being chief amongst who can be equated with Satanael.
I'd be glad to answer any further questions you might pose. It isn't that you've asked the wrong questions, but just inquired of the wrong individuals.
Regards,
Strahd
I'm sorry to disappoint you, but LaVey's tradition is not original and is based on an older more clandestine tradition dating back to at least the 1200's.
I have personally seen family grimoires dating back to at least 1517, naming Satan and eight other "divinities" as overseers. This is in part derived from the Yezidic tradition which also names several divinities as overseers of our world, Malek Taus being chief amongst who can be equated with Satanael.
I'd be glad to answer any further questions you might pose. It isn't that you've asked the wrong questions, but just inquired of the wrong individuals.
Regards,
Strahd
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Traditional Satanism--does it exist?
Original post: Venus666
Yeah. As a traditional, theistic satanist, I believe that the entitiy Satan exists, and it has embodied many gods throughout the ages. As a satanist it is my right to be able to use any god from any religion to further my ends. Traditional, theistic satanism is a religion where satan is the central god or being, and satan is worshipped/followed as a god.
There are many varieties of satanism, just as with any other religion. Not one SINGLE person invented the idea of satan and it does not represent one single god. (Trad)Satanism is a polythiestic religion that encompasses many gods, not just one god or one representation of one god. Stop putting monotheistic tenents on a polythiestic religion.
In fact, Lavey tries to get us all to admit that satan is not a real entity in his book, when in fact that is akin to taking christ out of christianity...! Lavey gives a nice modernistic view but it does not answer the spiritual side of satanism. It is less of a religion and more of a lifestyle.
BTW I do agree with you that SEt and Enki worshippers should call themsleves what they are. Setian, Enkian ect. Its only fair to call yourself a follower if you worship a(supreme) god/ess.
The biggest misunderstanding here by the "modern" satanists seem to
be the idea that traditional satanists are people in need of
something to believe in, just like christians or any other
pathetic "white" religion. ""
Yeah. As a traditional, theistic satanist, I believe that the entitiy Satan exists, and it has embodied many gods throughout the ages. As a satanist it is my right to be able to use any god from any religion to further my ends. Traditional, theistic satanism is a religion where satan is the central god or being, and satan is worshipped/followed as a god.
There are many varieties of satanism, just as with any other religion. Not one SINGLE person invented the idea of satan and it does not represent one single god. (Trad)Satanism is a polythiestic religion that encompasses many gods, not just one god or one representation of one god. Stop putting monotheistic tenents on a polythiestic religion.
Not quite. If it was only that easy. There are people who see satan as an actual entity, and have worshipped since way BEfore laveys satan. It just wasn't as widely publicised due to the religios fervor of the past century. Peoples lives were at stake.Traditional" Satanists
have only created themselves after, and in reaction to LaVey's
writing. Like it or not, it is LaVey who "beat everyone to the
punch" and actually defined what Satanism is, as a unique blend
(that did not exist before it) of existent religious and secular
philosophies. "Traditional" Satanists want to claim some sort of
tradition that they called Satanism through the centuries, but there
is no tradition, and thus "Traditional Satanism" is a misnomer*,
In fact, Lavey tries to get us all to admit that satan is not a real entity in his book, when in fact that is akin to taking christ out of christianity...! Lavey gives a nice modernistic view but it does not answer the spiritual side of satanism. It is less of a religion and more of a lifestyle.
BTW I do agree with you that SEt and Enki worshippers should call themsleves what they are. Setian, Enkian ect. Its only fair to call yourself a follower if you worship a(supreme) god/ess.
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Traditional Satanism--does it exist?
Original post: theblackpeacock
um, satanism (in it's many shapes and forms but specifically centered around the judeo-christian satan) has existed for much longer than modern satanism and calling it a retro religion is hypocritical because that's exactly what modern satanism is, but with a twist (like apple twist)
um, satanism (in it's many shapes and forms but specifically centered around the judeo-christian satan) has existed for much longer than modern satanism and calling it a retro religion is hypocritical because that's exactly what modern satanism is, but with a twist (like apple twist)
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Traditional Satanism--does it exist?
Original post: TheInsane
There is loads of difficult stuff that stems from this:
* LaVey might be the first person who called himself a Satanist and codified its beliefs and practices. However the Christians were first with calling other people Satanists. In fact its original meaning was probably anyone who did not believe in Christianity.
But this is a bad argument. The term "religion" is also a Christian term which really doesnt do much but to deal with the Christian religion in the original meaning of the word. It was originally a word to describe Christianity as a way to understand and describe Christianity.
* The traditional satanists often claim that Satan actually is the same being that was worshipped under a different name in different cultures regarding on how these people viewed him. Thus Satan, Loki, Odin, Seth, Pan etc are all the same being. That being is Satan (i.e. the version of the prince of darkness that is most useful or most understanable in todays culture). In that case the article above is wrong.
* However there is a problem with calling people satanists when they themselves would never actually label themselves as just that. I would rather see that they called these other religions as inspirational sources or something like that. The acceptance of the label is a important thing in regards to any religion.
Its the same thing as when LaVeyans were asked who some famous satanists were. Some yeard ago (7-8 years ago maybe) I found it common that people answered with guys like Walt Disney. This is absurd on so many levels but they said that Satanists were the elite in the society and thus alot of people who never accepted the label of "satanist" were in fact a satanist anyway.
* If we look at LaVeyan satanism he often incorporated other cultures into his practice. There were lots of different names for the "dark force in nature" and Blanche Barton later claimed that "if we (the satanists) had lived in another time and culture we wouldnt call ourselves satanists but the philosophy would still be the same".
* There is hardly any proof of organized and systemized practice of something called satanism before LaVey came around. Its HARD to find these things. There were Luciferians and the Yezidis did exist but none called themselves Satanists. The closest is when the Christian church sentences people to death for satanic practice and such. However I personally doubt that much of what was called "satanic practice" was ever done. It was just the church being paranoid and/or showing who's the boss.
There is loads of difficult stuff that stems from this:
* LaVey might be the first person who called himself a Satanist and codified its beliefs and practices. However the Christians were first with calling other people Satanists. In fact its original meaning was probably anyone who did not believe in Christianity.
But this is a bad argument. The term "religion" is also a Christian term which really doesnt do much but to deal with the Christian religion in the original meaning of the word. It was originally a word to describe Christianity as a way to understand and describe Christianity.
* The traditional satanists often claim that Satan actually is the same being that was worshipped under a different name in different cultures regarding on how these people viewed him. Thus Satan, Loki, Odin, Seth, Pan etc are all the same being. That being is Satan (i.e. the version of the prince of darkness that is most useful or most understanable in todays culture). In that case the article above is wrong.
* However there is a problem with calling people satanists when they themselves would never actually label themselves as just that. I would rather see that they called these other religions as inspirational sources or something like that. The acceptance of the label is a important thing in regards to any religion.
Its the same thing as when LaVeyans were asked who some famous satanists were. Some yeard ago (7-8 years ago maybe) I found it common that people answered with guys like Walt Disney. This is absurd on so many levels but they said that Satanists were the elite in the society and thus alot of people who never accepted the label of "satanist" were in fact a satanist anyway.
* If we look at LaVeyan satanism he often incorporated other cultures into his practice. There were lots of different names for the "dark force in nature" and Blanche Barton later claimed that "if we (the satanists) had lived in another time and culture we wouldnt call ourselves satanists but the philosophy would still be the same".
* There is hardly any proof of organized and systemized practice of something called satanism before LaVey came around. Its HARD to find these things. There were Luciferians and the Yezidis did exist but none called themselves Satanists. The closest is when the Christian church sentences people to death for satanic practice and such. However I personally doubt that much of what was called "satanic practice" was ever done. It was just the church being paranoid and/or showing who's the boss.
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Traditional Satanism--does it exist?
Original post: Skeptismo118
"Traditional Satanist" has roughly the same meaning, veracity and significance as someone claiming to be a "Traditional Wiccan."
In fact it may have even less considering that the term "Traditional Satanist" didn't come into being in that sense until the early 80s.
BUt whatever gets you through your day.
"Traditional Satanist" has roughly the same meaning, veracity and significance as someone claiming to be a "Traditional Wiccan."
In fact it may have even less considering that the term "Traditional Satanist" didn't come into being in that sense until the early 80s.
BUt whatever gets you through your day.
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Traditional Satanism--does it exist?
Original post: Great American Desert
The argument is really one over semantics...nothing more. Were there people that worshipped Satan before LaVey? Sure, I'd wager there were many. Were there atheists that pursued Satanic symbology and hedonism? Again, I'd wager there were many. Did they call themselves Satanists? Maybe, maybe not. The history of humanity goes back much further than the 1960s, and it's rather hard to believe that there was never a person or underground group that embraced what could be called "Satanism".
If the LaVey folk want to pride themselves on semantics, I think that's a bit pathetic. That woud be a bit like discovering an elephant and calling it a giraffe, and claiming superiority because you were the first one to call it a giraffe, despite the fact that most people were already familiar with the elephant.
But the fact is, the idea of Satanism did not originate with LaVey...it just happens that LaVey was the first one that made a public organization, codified a religion and tried to stake a claim of sole ownership of the term "Satanism".
The argument is really one over semantics...nothing more. Were there people that worshipped Satan before LaVey? Sure, I'd wager there were many. Were there atheists that pursued Satanic symbology and hedonism? Again, I'd wager there were many. Did they call themselves Satanists? Maybe, maybe not. The history of humanity goes back much further than the 1960s, and it's rather hard to believe that there was never a person or underground group that embraced what could be called "Satanism".
If the LaVey folk want to pride themselves on semantics, I think that's a bit pathetic. That woud be a bit like discovering an elephant and calling it a giraffe, and claiming superiority because you were the first one to call it a giraffe, despite the fact that most people were already familiar with the elephant.
But the fact is, the idea of Satanism did not originate with LaVey...it just happens that LaVey was the first one that made a public organization, codified a religion and tried to stake a claim of sole ownership of the term "Satanism".
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Traditional Satanism--does it exist?
Original post: Skeptismo118
The "psychodramatic atheist" thing is a blind. See _The Grotto Master's Handbook_ for a good look at how this works within the context of the CoS around roughly the time of LaVey's death.
The "psychodramatic atheist" thing is a blind. See _The Grotto Master's Handbook_ for a good look at how this works within the context of the CoS around roughly the time of LaVey's death.
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Traditional Satanism--does it exist?
Original post: Great American Desert
Where can I find it?
Where can I find it?
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Traditional Satanism--does it exist?
Original post: Sushumma
Also, IIRC, the "psychodramatic atheist" aspect is also dismissed in the Aquino's CoS book as something for the grand public, while the "spiritual" aspect of Satanism was very much alive in the private rituals of the satanists.
But of course Aquino, a spiritualist, would say that.
Also, IIRC, the "psychodramatic atheist" aspect is also dismissed in the Aquino's CoS book as something for the grand public, while the "spiritual" aspect of Satanism was very much alive in the private rituals of the satanists.
But of course Aquino, a spiritualist, would say that.
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Traditional Satanism--does it exist?
Original post: Skeptismo118
Do a search through Usenet. The document was "leaked" a few years back in part of a post-LaVey spat among some Satanists. Interesting read and some good ideas on the topic of running a working group.
Do a search through Usenet. The document was "leaked" a few years back in part of a post-LaVey spat among some Satanists. Interesting read and some good ideas on the topic of running a working group.
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Traditional Satanism--does it exist?
Original post: Interstellis
In case anyone missed it, Centrix found this info and posted it here for our reading pleasure/amusement/etc...he is not the author.
In case anyone missed it, Centrix found this info and posted it here for our reading pleasure/amusement/etc...he is not the author.
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Traditional Satanism--does it exist?
Original post: ReapeR
[QUOTE=Centrix]Here is a reply most likely to a JoS member from a person on another forum. It makes alot of sense:[/QUOTE]
Well, whoever wrote this replay is some idiot who has nothing to do with satanism, nor he/she has any sight into real traditional satanic lodges nor he/she will ever have. And, I don't know how much times I said this but JOS (and similar groups) has nothing to do with traditional satanism.
[QUOTE=Centrix]Here is a reply most likely to a JoS member from a person on another forum. It makes alot of sense:[/QUOTE]
Well, whoever wrote this replay is some idiot who has nothing to do with satanism, nor he/she has any sight into real traditional satanic lodges nor he/she will ever have. And, I don't know how much times I said this but JOS (and similar groups) has nothing to do with traditional satanism.
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Traditional Satanism--does it exist?
Original post: m1thr0s
Topic Closed.
m1thr0s
Centrix: Please don't import posts from other forums for discussion here in ours. Among other things, this borders on copyright infringement. If you want to restart this topic in your own words that is fine but the way you have this set up right now it is impossible to discuss intelligently since we don't have the entire context of the original conversation to draw on. Moreover, OF is NOT an extension of some other forum. Either put it in your own words or don't post it at all. If you need to link to some other article/conversation someplace to reinforce a point, that's ok...Here is a reply most likely to a JoS member from a person on another forum. It makes alot of sense:
Topic Closed.
m1thr0s
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infernalmonkofSatan
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Re: Traditional Satanism--does it exist?
Have you gone on the brotherhood of Satans website? please do.Occult Forum Archive wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2005 1:52 am Original post: Scholomancer
I'm sorry to disappoint you, but LaVey's tradition is not original and is based on an older more clandestine tradition dating back to at least the 1200's.
I have personally seen family grimoires dating back to at least 1517, naming Satan and eight other "divinities" as overseers. This is in part derived from the Yezidic tradition which also names several divinities as overseers of our world, Malek Taus being chief amongst who can be equated with Satanael.
I'd be glad to answer any further questions you might pose. It isn't that you've asked the wrong questions, but just inquired of the wrong individuals.
Regards,
Strahd