Original post: Jenfucius
Is there any literature sources for Gnostic rituals? I sort of begining to wonder if Gnostic rituals has even existed. Whats the archeological or historical refrences to the rituals that Gnostics supposely practiced????
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Original post: foxgemini
I would go to Stephen Hoeller's Gnostic Church website and look in the archives. They have the Nag Hammadi texts organized by category, and one of those categories is liturgy. Its all free, and extremely interesting. I'm trying to do at least a cursory reading of the entire library, but its going to take a while. We are so lucky to have found these texts, and to have kept them free to the public, in spite of ignorant people's attempts to supress them. I hope that helps.
Tim.
I would go to Stephen Hoeller's Gnostic Church website and look in the archives. They have the Nag Hammadi texts organized by category, and one of those categories is liturgy. Its all free, and extremely interesting. I'm trying to do at least a cursory reading of the entire library, but its going to take a while. We are so lucky to have found these texts, and to have kept them free to the public, in spite of ignorant people's attempts to supress them. I hope that helps.
Tim.
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Original post: Demetrios
[QUOTE=Jenfucius]Is there any literature sources for Gnostic rituals? I sort of begining to wonder if Gnostic rituals has even existed. Whats the archeological or historical refrences to the rituals that Gnostics supposely practiced????[/QUOTE]
I'd guess the best literary sources to get some general idea of religious rituals of Hellenistic era are the Greek and Demotic Magical Papyri (which include also descriptions of various initiations), though not directly Gnostic evidence of course.
[QUOTE=Jenfucius]Is there any literature sources for Gnostic rituals? I sort of begining to wonder if Gnostic rituals has even existed. Whats the archeological or historical refrences to the rituals that Gnostics supposely practiced????[/QUOTE]
I'd guess the best literary sources to get some general idea of religious rituals of Hellenistic era are the Greek and Demotic Magical Papyri (which include also descriptions of various initiations), though not directly Gnostic evidence of course.
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Original post: Sushumma
I guess this is the place to collect speculation in order to get it shot down...
Here's a website that suggests Bridal Chamber might be about prolonged non-orgasmic sex, just like tantric sex excercises:
http://www.reuniting.info/wisdom/nag_ha ... al_chamber
It's also discussed elsewhere in the forums:
http://occultforums.com/showthread.php?t=18067
I guess this is the place to collect speculation in order to get it shot down...
Here's a website that suggests Bridal Chamber might be about prolonged non-orgasmic sex, just like tantric sex excercises:
http://www.reuniting.info/wisdom/nag_ha ... al_chamber
It's also discussed elsewhere in the forums:
http://occultforums.com/showthread.php?t=18067
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Original post: Space Debris
It's certainly true that the Catholic-Orthodox polemicists accused some Gnostics of engaging in ritual sex acts. And while we cannot rule this out as a possibility, the fact is that the evidence in favor of the existence of such libertine Gnostics is very slim. Many academic experts on Gnosticism now express a great deal of scepticism regarding such sex practices among the historical Gnostics.
As for Gnostic rituals generally, as foxgemini already suggested, taking a look at the scriptures is a good idea, as ritual practices do come up for discussion in them. In some there are only vague references or general treatment of the issue of ritual, but in some there are actually some very specific descriptions of rituals relevant to the groups that produced those texts. An important thing to keep in mind is that there isn't a specific set of rituals which are the "Gnostic rituals." From the Gnostic scriptures it is clear that different groups had different ritual practices, and that at least some didn't emphasize ritual much at all.
Groups, such as that website, that suggest the extant Gnostic scriptures support acts of "sacred sex" are just reading into the texts whatever they wish to find there. In the case of the Gospel of Philip, such eisegesis flies in the face of the text's own explanation that the spiritual "mystery of marriage" it refers to is not a physical act: According to Philip, sexual intercourse is a matter of "defilement," while the spiritual marriage effected by the Bridal Chamber, by contrast, "is not fleshly" (NHC II 82,4-6).Here's a website that suggests Bridal Chamber might be about prolonged non-orgasmic sex, just like tantric sex excercises
It's certainly true that the Catholic-Orthodox polemicists accused some Gnostics of engaging in ritual sex acts. And while we cannot rule this out as a possibility, the fact is that the evidence in favor of the existence of such libertine Gnostics is very slim. Many academic experts on Gnosticism now express a great deal of scepticism regarding such sex practices among the historical Gnostics.
As for Gnostic rituals generally, as foxgemini already suggested, taking a look at the scriptures is a good idea, as ritual practices do come up for discussion in them. In some there are only vague references or general treatment of the issue of ritual, but in some there are actually some very specific descriptions of rituals relevant to the groups that produced those texts. An important thing to keep in mind is that there isn't a specific set of rituals which are the "Gnostic rituals." From the Gnostic scriptures it is clear that different groups had different ritual practices, and that at least some didn't emphasize ritual much at all.
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Original post: Jenfucius
I'm definatly going to check out the sources so kindly given by my fellow OFers.
I suppose the "sacred sex" part was a modern interpretation based in part by the influence of tantric literature in the west. From the littel I have read I heard some Gnostics considered the material world to be evil????
I'm definatly going to check out the sources so kindly given by my fellow OFers.
I suppose the "sacred sex" part was a modern interpretation based in part by the influence of tantric literature in the west. From the littel I have read I heard some Gnostics considered the material world to be evil????
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Original post: Space Debris
Yeah, I think that is probably the case with such groups.I suppose the "sacred sex" part was a modern interpretation based in part by the influence of tantric literature in the west.
A negative opinion regarding the material universe, in comparison to the spiritual realm, is pretty common in Gnostic texts.From the littel I have read I heard some Gnostics considered the material world to be evil????
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Original post: foxgemini
Gnosticism emphasizes primarily that there is a more real, perfect world that supersedes material reality. I tend to be a very fleshly kind of guy, and I'm not sure I agree with this part of Gnostic theology. However, it may also be noted that this idea of the material world as lesser is common to nearly every religion on the planet. (I stress nearly.) We talked a good deal about the influence of Plato a few months ago, and the conclusion was that Gnostic texts may have been influenced by Neo-Platonism, which is similar in focus and cosmology to Gnosticism.
However, I think that the Gnostic texts represent a significant move forward in philosophy and theology in the West, a move that has yet to be integrated into our way of thinking.
Tim.
Gnosticism emphasizes primarily that there is a more real, perfect world that supersedes material reality. I tend to be a very fleshly kind of guy, and I'm not sure I agree with this part of Gnostic theology. However, it may also be noted that this idea of the material world as lesser is common to nearly every religion on the planet. (I stress nearly.) We talked a good deal about the influence of Plato a few months ago, and the conclusion was that Gnostic texts may have been influenced by Neo-Platonism, which is similar in focus and cosmology to Gnosticism.
However, I think that the Gnostic texts represent a significant move forward in philosophy and theology in the West, a move that has yet to be integrated into our way of thinking.
Tim.
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Original post: AppleJack
On sex you have different opinions (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnostics#Lifestyle)
Go to this page then go down to Liturgical and initiatory texts for some ritual.
On sex you have different opinions (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnostics#Lifestyle)
Most Gnostics practiced celibacy and asceticism, on the grounds that the pleasures of the flesh induced the subject to remain ignorant of spiritual realities; a few however practiced libertinism, arguing since the body was evil they should defile it, or that since the body was evil it did not matter what was done with it. This led to further distrust, and was an accusation leveled against other groups who did not follow this practice.
It should be noted, however, that evidence exists as to the existence a Valentinian ritual called 'The Bridal Chamber' in which a couple would engage in ritualistic sexual intercourse, both in imitation of and in praise of the true God. Given that a common criticism of Valentinus was his more permissive approach to matters of human sexuality than was deemed acceptable by emergent orthodoxy, it becomes apparent that the notion of gnostic movements wildly oscillating between absolute license and total abstention is an inaccurate one, and that seeking for an easily-summarised, broadly-applicable attitude is in all probability a wasted effort.
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Original post: Space Debris
[QUOTE=Some guy on Wikipedia] It should be noted, however, that evidence exists as to the existence a Valentinian ritual called 'The Bridal Chamber' in which a couple would engage in ritualistic sexual intercourse, both in imitation of and in praise of the true God.[/QUOTE]Well, as I mentioned before, all "evidence" of sex rituals among Gnostics consist of lurid accusations from orthodox polemicists, whose job it was to make Gnostics look as bad as possible, and not necessarily by honest means. Nothing in the surviving Gnostic scriptures themselves offers anything to support such activities, and in the case of the Valentinian Bridal Chamber, there is certainly no material in the scriptures supporting a sexual application. People who say there is such evidence are generally misreading, or reading selected portions out of context, from texts such as the Gospel of Philip.
Regarding sex in general, certainly there is evidence that supports a range of views. Some took an ascetic stance on this issue, but others had a more moderate position. So sex is by no means a necessarily "bad" thing, from a Gnostic point of view. But what I'm skeptical of is that any historical Gnostics elevated sex to the point where it had some kind of sacred function. Of course, if anyone can point to some evidence of sex rituals that I have overlooked in Gnostic writings, I'd certainly be grateful if he or she shows me where it is.
[QUOTE=Some guy on Wikipedia] It should be noted, however, that evidence exists as to the existence a Valentinian ritual called 'The Bridal Chamber' in which a couple would engage in ritualistic sexual intercourse, both in imitation of and in praise of the true God.[/QUOTE]Well, as I mentioned before, all "evidence" of sex rituals among Gnostics consist of lurid accusations from orthodox polemicists, whose job it was to make Gnostics look as bad as possible, and not necessarily by honest means. Nothing in the surviving Gnostic scriptures themselves offers anything to support such activities, and in the case of the Valentinian Bridal Chamber, there is certainly no material in the scriptures supporting a sexual application. People who say there is such evidence are generally misreading, or reading selected portions out of context, from texts such as the Gospel of Philip.
Regarding sex in general, certainly there is evidence that supports a range of views. Some took an ascetic stance on this issue, but others had a more moderate position. So sex is by no means a necessarily "bad" thing, from a Gnostic point of view. But what I'm skeptical of is that any historical Gnostics elevated sex to the point where it had some kind of sacred function. Of course, if anyone can point to some evidence of sex rituals that I have overlooked in Gnostic writings, I'd certainly be grateful if he or she shows me where it is.
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Original post: SquirleyWurley
A great concern is avoiding the traps of the archons/demiurge. Simply having children makes life so complex, and then children have to deal with the horrors of this world and its ignorance. In an age before birth control, where sexuality was rampant, and sexual abuse tolerated, with sexual slaves in brothels, etc., it is understandable that some were attracted to groups that completely rejected sex. It is also understandable that some engaged in oral or anal sex, so as to avoid the complication/trap of having to raise kids into such a world.
With the range of magical and sexual attitudes of the time, quite a bit of variation seems likely, in any given religious movement of any size.
A great concern is avoiding the traps of the archons/demiurge. Simply having children makes life so complex, and then children have to deal with the horrors of this world and its ignorance. In an age before birth control, where sexuality was rampant, and sexual abuse tolerated, with sexual slaves in brothels, etc., it is understandable that some were attracted to groups that completely rejected sex. It is also understandable that some engaged in oral or anal sex, so as to avoid the complication/trap of having to raise kids into such a world.
With the range of magical and sexual attitudes of the time, quite a bit of variation seems likely, in any given religious movement of any size.
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Original post: Space Debris
There is some evidence that suggests that there may have been a range of views on the issue of children, as well. For example, heresiologists report that Isidore was Basilides's son. While this doesn't necessarily mean that Isidore was his biological child (perhaps he was adopted), it is a possibility, especially considering that the Basilideans seem to have been among the Gnostics who took a moderate position on sexuality, at least according to Clement's description of Isidore's teaching on the issue (which basically follows Paul in 1 Corinthians 7). And consider that in the section of the Testimony of Truth where the author sharply criticizes the practices of certain other Gnostics he disagrees with, he says that "the Simonians take wives and beget children" (NHC IX 58, 2-4). And, if we can include the followers of Justin's Baruch in this consideration, according to Hippolytus they had an entirely positive view of procreation. None of this is definitive proof, of course, but it does raise the possibility that not all Gnostics considered giving birth to children to be something to be absolutely avoided.
There is some evidence that suggests that there may have been a range of views on the issue of children, as well. For example, heresiologists report that Isidore was Basilides's son. While this doesn't necessarily mean that Isidore was his biological child (perhaps he was adopted), it is a possibility, especially considering that the Basilideans seem to have been among the Gnostics who took a moderate position on sexuality, at least according to Clement's description of Isidore's teaching on the issue (which basically follows Paul in 1 Corinthians 7). And consider that in the section of the Testimony of Truth where the author sharply criticizes the practices of certain other Gnostics he disagrees with, he says that "the Simonians take wives and beget children" (NHC IX 58, 2-4). And, if we can include the followers of Justin's Baruch in this consideration, according to Hippolytus they had an entirely positive view of procreation. None of this is definitive proof, of course, but it does raise the possibility that not all Gnostics considered giving birth to children to be something to be absolutely avoided.
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Original post: SquirleyWurley
great point, thanks for giving the details/sources
great point, thanks for giving the details/sources
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Original post: raphanius
I have the gnostic thunderbolt on my site for your perusal.
http://magick.4allonline.com/fulmen.htm
I have the gnostic thunderbolt on my site for your perusal.
http://magick.4allonline.com/fulmen.htm
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Original post: aware
So near yet so far. shame.
So near yet so far. shame.